Visit the other “Dancing with Nazis” Web Sites here:
• Arnold Schwarzenegger
• Brujeria – Killing Whiteys (Americans)
• Marilyn Manson
• The Smiley Face MurdersCONTENTS OF THIS PAGE
•Introduction
•Nazi Rammstein Fans Busted in Israel
•Nazi-Ästhetik in Pop- und Grufti-kultur (video)
•Nazi, Metzger, interviews Early Industrial Musician, Boyd Rice (video)
•Background
•Laibach Use of Nazi/Totalitarian Aesthetics
•Columbine Shooters prowl for Victims
•Why Rammstein is Accused of Nazism
•Art Collaborator Helnwein, obsessed with Hitler
•The “Old German Hard” Style
•Interpretations of a few Videos
•Tribute to our brave Rammstein Youth
•Was Adolf Hitler an early Rammstein Fan?
•Till Lindemann Nazi-Goosestepping on Stage
•The Rammsteinjugend / Rammstein Youth
•Fair Use Notice
•Selected Comments
Rammstein-Jugend “out” Themselves with a Heil Hitler!
Rammstein Fans desecrate Temple with Nazi Graffiti
This Sturmtrupp of Rammstein-Jugend (Rammstein-Youth) has recently been arrested in Israel for desecrating synagogues and attacking Jews, foreigners, homeless and others.
These Neo-Nazis are Rammstein fans. They made a video set to Rammstein music of beatings of Jews, homeless, gays, foreign guest workers and even elderly people. Below is a short clip of modern-day Nazi storm troopers beating the crap out of defenseless victims to the throbbing, faschoid pulse of Rammstein’s songs, “Feuer Frei” and “Du hasst” (You hate) and a CNN report about this gang of Rammstein-Jugend that were arrested in Israel:
Neo-Nazi Rammstein-Jugend busted in Israel
You can rightly say that many Rammstein fans are not Nazis. However, there are different levels of understanding Rammstein. Many of the more casual fans may not understand or notice how Rammstein uses allusions to Nazism in their music. Neo-Nazis are attracted to Rammstein’s music because of the Nazi aesthetic that they knowingly use in their performances.
For those that understand German, here is a report by Oestererreiches Rundfunk (ORF) about the prevalence of Nazi Aesthetics in pop culture and the use of Nazi symbolism among Goths, Metal and Industrial music fans.
Nazi-Ästhetik in Pop- und Grufti-kultur
The next clip is an interview of Boyd Rice by Tom Metzger. Tom Metzger is a leading Nazi in the United States and at one time a Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan for California and founder of the Nazi Organization, White Aryan Resistance (WAR). Boyd Rice was an early “industrial” musician and has had great influence on “industrial” rock and its related genres. In this interview Metzger discusses with Boyd Rice how this new genre of electronic “white music” can be used for purposes of Nazi propaganda to promote a “aryan subculture”. This video was apparently made in 1986. So the effort to promote Nazism via pop music is not exactly a new idea. Those fans that believe Rammstein when they say they have absolutely no idea why people accuse them of Nazism or that people accuse them of that only because they are German, should finally consider the possibility that Rammstein is lying to you. Nazi undertones have for a long time been often put intentionally in industrial music and related music genres. It is nothing new and it is no accident. Rammstein fans should finally grow up, get a clue and realize that it is there and is intentional.
Top Nazi, Tom Metzger, Interviews Satanist & Nazi, Boyd Rice, an early Industrial Musician.
This is an editorial discussion of possible interpretations of the symbolism and allegory used by the German industrial metal band, Rammstein. Rammstein is one of a group of bands that make what is called by some as “Pop-Nazi”, Avant Nazi or “Reich and Roll”. Many of Rammstein’s performances have Nazi undertones in sound and in a metaphorical/allegorical sense. The purpose of this webpage is to give background information about the symbolism and put it in context.
Possible interpretations are given here. It can not be proven that any one interpretation is the “correct” interpretation. Their works seem to be designed to be ambiguous as is always the nature of metaphors and allegory. It seems, however, obvious that Rammstein intends to make allusions to Nazism. Whether this represents political conviction or a kind of mimicry of Nazism is not entirely clear. It could be just part of a crude and insensitive marketing strategy on the part of Rammstein to create controversy and in that way generate publicity.
Rammstein is not being accused of being Nazis here. They are being accused of making allusions to Nazism in some of their musical works. Whether they are Nazis or not is not certain. However, it does seem clear that Rammstein — as well as many of their fans — do not have the appropriate respect for the crimes of the Nazis and the millions of people that suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis and their accomplices, whether these victims be Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Germans or some other nationality or ethnic group.
This is not the first time that bands have incorporated Nazi, fascist and totalitarian concepts and imagery into their performances. The Slovenian band, Laibach, is said to have been a major influence on Rammstein and they began experimenting with embedding Nazi/totalitarian allusions in their performances 15-20 years ago or more. In the photo below, it is clear that the Rammstein-like cross is being used as a substitute for the swastika.
Laibach in Full Avant-Nazi-SS Regalia
See, for example, the video by Laibach, “Geburt einer Nation” on YouTube. The video has similarities to Riefenstahl’s Nazi propaganda film documenting Nuremberg Reichtstag, “Triump des Willens” and is chock full of Nazi allusions. British Subjects will especially be interested in Laibach’s Anglia (on Youtube) that depicts the torture of British subjects. Another such clip that is full of totalitarian and faschist symbols is “Tanz mit Laibach”. Here are a couple of examples of the allusions to Nazism. The cogged wheel is borrowed from Hitler’s German Workers Front, originally it had a Swastika inside it. The images of deer or elk allude to the “Life Rune” or “Lebensrune” in German (commonly used by Nazis), because this rune has a shape that looks similar to the antlers of a deer. Laibach puts “Leben” on the screen when the deer appear, to make sure those in the know don’t miss the reference. The Life Rune represents the life force of the Volksgemeinschaft. There are too many references to Nazism in the video to describe all of them here, but you can probably sense others. Rammstein has been described as Laibach for kids. They are a little more subtle than Laibach but use the same basic approach in their performances. They often use a militaristic cadence and frequently use symbols and/or allegories that suggest faschism and/or Nazism. This clip below has similarities to Rammstein’s marching song, “Links, Zwo, Drei, Vier”.
Laibach – Tanz mit Laibach
Rammstein appears to be satirizing in a way. Satire is the ridicule of persons or groups of people, often for political reasons. Rammstein is, however, does not seem to be satirizing Nazism. They seem, rather, to be satirizing those who try to suppress Nazism and extreme German nationalism and especially those Germans that feel so much guilt and embarrassment about the German past that they don’t want the subject mentioned or discussed at all. Since these Nazi ideas are taboo in Germany and most other places in the World, many of the fans are fascinated and mesmerized by this flirtation with the forbidden fruit of Nazism, whether it is a conscious fascination or not.
Rammstein is one of the most popular of a genre of bands, who embed nihilistic, violent and anarchistic themes in their music, which are not necessarily related to Nazism. Some of their more unstable fans, who are social misfits, become fixated with these themes and go out and commit violent acts and even mass murders that are consistent with these themes, if not inspired by the groups. The musicians and their supporters vehemently assert that they should not be assigned any responsibility at all for the actions of a few of their fans.
Unstable, anarchistic social misfits attack “the System”
inspired by inflammatory messages in the media
Some interesting historical parallels can be drawn between this phenomenon and the Anarchist Movement of the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. At that time a group of anarchistic firebrands regularly published tirades in the media which incited people on the edge of society to rage against the social order of the time. Some unstable, disaffected extremists and fanatics, were inflamed enough to go out and assassinate several European and American heads of state, including Archduke Ferdinand of Austria in 1914. These violent acts provided self-validation for the otherwise ineffectual, anonymous men who carried them out and also publicity for the diffuse grievances that they harbored against society.
Haters – Rammstein/KMFDM fans prowl for
Prey during Massacre on Hitler’s Birthday
The next clip is apparently a dramatization of the video taken from Columbine security cameras and a call to the police from a student. The video shows two Rammstein fans expressing their discontent with society.
Rammstein-Youth Celebrate Hitler’s Birthday[Youtube=http://youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=82N7mVgoNMM]
There was no direct connection then, either, between the people that incited the actions in the media and the unstable persons that carried out the violent attacks of a century ago. However, today’s body count continues to go up due to the massacres of innocents killed by these disaffected fans of certain bands that fan the flames of their anger at “the System” and the World, in general. Meanwhile, the bands are making a very nice, tidy profit from their efforts, while sometimes sanctimoniously incorporating a certain amount of social criticism in their own works, and even claiming to be the victims, when anyone offers any criticism of the sometimes violent and perverse themes of their performances.
Ironically, if these mass murderers had been listening to tapes from angry, hateful mullahs, there would probably be no problem assigning some amount of responsibility to the mullahs. However, since they tend to be fans of certain metal bands, it is considered impolitic to notice the potential influence of the music on these mass murderers. When the mass murders happen repeatedly, however, it becomes more difficult to maintain that the bands can not be expected to know that certain types of performances can have such an influence on their more unstable, sycophantic fans. In fact, it seems the fans of some metal bands are now carrying out more mass murders of innocent civilians (school children) in some parts of the world than the followers of Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaida do.
The song lyrics are protected in the US by the constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech. However, it, seems, if the band members can reasonably be expected to know that a certain type of song will likely cause their fans to carry out a crime such as a mass murder (because it has happened before), it may be possible to bring a civil conspiracy charge against the band members, as has been done successfully with some hate groups. The key is that the band should be expected to know that a crime would result. The more often these school shootings and mass murders are connected to a particular band’s music, the more reasonable it is to expect that they should know their music can cause such crimes and they will eventually be held liable for the mass murders or other crimes carried out by their fans.
There is a kind of disinformation mill at work that denies there is any reason at all to think that Rammstein may have a right-wing extremist agenda. That seems rather absurd, because Rammstein’s work contains numerous symbols and references into which extremist, right-wing allusions can be read. The objective here is to provide an alternative interpretation of Rammstein’s performances and to point out that there are valid reasons that people may accuse them of having such an agenda. Visitors can decide for themselves what the group’s motivations for using this symbolism may be, whether out of ideology, to provoke or simply greed. The list of symbols here that may be associated with Nazism or right-wing extremism is, by far, not complete and is meant only to provide a few examples of interpretation of the symbolism found in Rammstein’s performances.
These are the main reasons that people can be led to believe that Rammstein may have a extreme right-wing agenda:
The often harsh, often militaristic tone of the music. The frequent use of symbols, metaphors and allegory that allude to Nazism. Frequent use of the war colors of the Third Reich.
Rammstein sings often about “Mother” and the “Sun”. “Mother” or weak women (as in “Du hasst / You Hate”) can often times be taken as a metaphor for modern-day democratic Germany. The swastika is a symbol for the sun. So, references to the sun or to solar symbols can be understood to be references to the Swastika or Nazism, in general.
Another important allusion to Nazism is the use of flames. Rammstein is, of course, famous for their use of flames in their performances. Bonfire and torch-lite parades have been prominent in German nationalistic celebrations since the earliest days of modern German nationalism. The symbolic meaning of flame is “change” or “revolution”. Flames were frequently used by the Nazi SS and Hitler Youth in their ceremonies. The Hitler Youth often had symbolic flames painted on their drums. Some fascist groups still use flames in their logos, such as the National Sammlung and Front National in France, not to mention the burning cross of the KKK. The use of flames alone would not suggest anything, but the use of flames with all of the other allusions to Nazism suggest that it is also an allusion to Nazism, that is an allusion to Nazi-Revolution.
Like R+ Fans, the Nazi SS also Enjoyed Their Fire Shows
Grottfried Helnwein is a shock-artist originally, from Austria. He has advised Rammstein on their art design and is known to have an intense fascination with Nazi imagery. He has also been reported to be a leader in the Scientology cult involved with the secret service of Scientology and involved in celebrity recruitment for the Cult. Scientology has been found by German courts to be a anti-democratic, totalitarian cult with elements of criminality. That means there are some similarities between the beliefs of Scientology and those of the Nazi Party. Below is an example of his artwork, entitled “Epiphany”. It represents the adoration of Christ with a infant Hitler cast as the “Messiah”, three Nazi-SS-officers as the wise men and a very teutonic Virgin Mary. With Helnwein as art adviser, one can perhaps understand why there are so many references to Nazism in Rammstein’s performances. Click on the image of baby Adolf/Jesus below to go to the Rammstein page on Helnwein’s website.
Hitler as Messiah, by Helnwein, Rammstein Art-Collaborator,
Below is a self-portrait of Herr Helnwein, Scientology Cult leader extraordinaire and Rammstein collaborator for art. It is not clear, whether this is his own, personal Panzer, or, if he borrowed this tank from his good friend, Arnold Schwarzenegger, for the purpose of making a romp on the weekend through the Ardenne Forest on the border with Belgium. Notice he appears to be wearing a pistol and so the would-be desert fox appears to be fully prepared for personal combat.
Helnwein, Scientology Super-Agent – Gott der Untermenschen
To Germany and Austria’s credit, Helnwein had difficulties there and ultimately fled to California, where he has a studio and Ireland, where he has a castle, which he uses to entertain celebrities at events with prominent Scientologists and presumably convert a few of them to Scientologists.
Some people seem to have somehow gotten the idea that there are no Nazis in Germany any longer. Others will not think that someone has Nazi political sympathies, unless they are wearing a Nazi SS uniform with a swastika on it. Although there are still Nazi street thugs in Germany, there are also Nazis in Germany that wear business suits that are family people and that are even in the Government. There are also people that are not Nazis, but have political philosophies that are similar to Nazism (see Scientology), without believing in everything that the Nazis believed. Click here for some information about the Nazis of today in Germany.
There is an absurd claim in the Internet that people think Rammstein is Nazi because of the way Lindemann rolls his R’s. These absurd explanations seem put out by the disinformation mill to deflect attention from the real reasons or just to belittle the accusations. Rammstein’s style of music is called the Neue Deutsche Härte (the new German Hard). That implies that there was an “Old German Hard Style”. During the Nazi years it was popular among authority figures (read Nazi officials) to roll the R’s and to speak in a harsh and commanding tone of voice. What causes people to associate Rammstein’s intonation with Nazism is not the way Lindemann rolls his R’s, but his harsh, militaristic, unforgiving and commanding way of vocalizing many of the songs. After the war Germans shunned this way of speaking in order not to provoke Nazi-Stereotypes. Lindemann, however, exaggerates this ton of voice so that he sounds even more sinister than the Nazis and goes out of his way to provoke old stereotypes. See this video for an example of the Old German Hard style:
Judge Roland Freisler – aka “Raving Roland”
The Judge’s name is Roland Freisler and he was very well-known for the intensity of his “Alte Deutsche Härte” (Old German Hard) Style. The men he was addressing in “Old German Hard” Style had tried to assassinate the dear Führer. They were later hanged by order of Freisler. As head of the Volksgerichtshof, Freisler was responsible for sentencing many thousands to death, including many dissidents and resisters of the Nazis. Judge Freisler, in turn, was killed as he held court in Berlin on February 3, 1945 by a bomb dropped by a US Flying Fortress in the largest raid to that date on Berlin.
Here is another example of the Alte Deutsche Härte. This one is even a little more melodic. It is also interactive, like Rammstein’s “Heirate mich” video. The audience responds to questions from the speaker with a roar of “JAAAA!!!”. They even salute Goebbels like Rammstein Fans salute Till with a variation of the devil horns salute.
Goebbels’ Old German Hard hit
“Do you want Total War!!”
The gist of this speech above is that Goebbels is saying Germany will “defend” itself, whether other countries like it or not. Extreme and radical total war is the quickest war, he says, and asks, if the Germans want Total War … even if it is more extreme and radical than anything they previously could imagine. This speech was made only a couple of weeks after the Germans lost the Battle of Stalingrad, which was probably the most brutal battle in history and the turning point in the war. There were about 1.5 million casualties on both sides.
“Total War” meant murdering millions of people by shooting them into ditches, gassing them in extermination camps or killing them in other atrocities. More than a million civilian “enemies of Germany” had already been murdered. Food was also denied Soviets prisoners of war and civilian populations in Eastern Europe so that they would stave to death. Eventually about 20-30 million men, women and children died in this way in Eastern Europe in Goebbels total war.
Some people try to blame only Hitler and his Nazi henchmen for WWII. However, as can be seen in this video clip above, during the war, Hitler had the support of many Germans. Hitler convinced the Germans that certain countries and the “Jewish World Conspiracy” had an unfair advantage and was trying to destroy Germany, if they only followed him without question, Germany could create a new world order and become a great power. At the same time, those that dissented were brutally eliminated. Much of the population had a pretty good idea what was happening. Hitler proposed gassing thousands of Jews already in his book, Mein Kampf, which was sold in the millions of copies, years before the war started. He also threatened in a speech to annihilate the Jewish race in Europe, if the “Jews started a war”. Those that didn’t know what Hitler had in mind, just didn’t want to know and did not care very much what happened to Hitler’s “undesirables”, which besides Jews included any potential political opposition, Gypsies, social outcasts of various types, certain Slavic groups and the insane or handicapped. The plan was to exterminate, in total, about 20-30 million people in murder factories or killing pits, deport tens of millions more to the east and for Himmler’s German Junkers (lords) to rule the rest as slaves, but the operation was abruptly interrupted by a successful massive Soviet counter-attack.
Here are a couple of clips, a Speech where, the number one star of the “Old German Hard” style, Adolf Hitler, promises to “destroy” or “annihilate” the Jewish race in Europe, if another war starts. He does not say expel or punish he says “destroy or exterminate” the Jewish race that is exactly what he tried to do. This speech was probably broadcast to the entire country. The other is an excerpt from a German documentary of 1940 which was intended to prepare the Germans for the final solution for the Jewish “parasites”. It compares Jews to rats. It was probably also shown in theaters across all of Germany.
Signs of the Coming Holocaust
Because many Germans had a strong prejudicial hatred for the Jews and even certain other European nationalities, they did not really care what happened to the Jews when they were shipped to the war zone in the east often in cattle cars and in winter without sufficient supplies. It is not anti-German to mention this. It is just the way it was at that time. To say the German population was forced by a few Nazis to accept all of the terrible things that happened or that they did not know what was happening is just not correct. Much of the German population participated willingly. What German was ever punished simply for telling a friend or neighbor about the rumors of mass murders occurring on the eastern front? It was an open secret on the front and soldiers did come back on leave and talk about it.
There was a mass mania in Germany at that time. People can be fascinated when the normal bounds of society and even the limits of civilization can be cast aside. It feels good to be told that you are the “superman” and others are “subhuman”. Hitler had the support of a very large part of the German population, at times it was certainly a great majority of the German population, when he was having success To deny that most Germans supported Hitler, while he was having great success, is to fail to understand what really happened. Hitler purposely involved the German people in his crimes to insure that they would not turn against him. Germans may not have known all the details, but the population knew basically that the Jews and others were being exterminated. They understood that there would be a terrible price to pay, if Germany were ever defeated. Unfortunately, Germans do not have a monopoly over the totalitarian Nazi/fascist way of thinking. For that reason it is important to understand what really happened at that time in Germany, and not to invent some fairy tale just to make Germans feel better about themselves. Similar things can and do happen elsewhere, and it is a good thing that the Nazi period has been documented so well in Germany. It is not just a problem for Germans, but a problem for everyone, how to prevent that sort of extreme mass hysteria and mass brainwashing from happening again.
The key concept here seems to be that some bands have discovered that a similar cult-like, mass hysterical effect can be produced on a much smaller scale among smaller groups, for example among their fans. The band, Laibach, experimented with embedding Nazi, fascist, and totalitarian concepts and symbolism, as well as homoeroticism, in their performances and discovered they can induce an intense, emotional reaction among their audiences, even among audiences that politically should not be attracted to Nazism. You can find the old clips of Laibach on YouTube. Search for Laibach – Geburt einer Nation.
It seems that bands, such as Rammstein or Marilyn Manson, are producing the same kind of effect among their fans. They don’t proclaim themselves to be right-wing extremist, but they put enough references to extremist icons in their performances that many of their fans make the association, whether consciously, or not. The cult-like, mass psychology probably works just as well for anarchist concepts, other types of totalitarianism or even a mixture. The young fans are almost irresistibly attracted by the references to violence, homoerotic sexuality and the breaking down of other taboos and social norms and the bands love the effect and the money that it brings in, no matter who it may harm.
The Old German Hard was also internationally popular, the same as the New German Hard. In the image below, 4,000 fans of the Old German Hard meet in a park in Newark, New Jersey in the 1930’s and enjoy a day in the park of high-stepping parades and rousing, anti-Joo political speeches. Note the US Flags.
Fans of the Old German Hard Hold a Celebration in New Jersey
Here is an example of the Neue Deutsche Härte. Let’s see if you can hear the similarities. Some of Rammstein’s songs can really swell the fascist breast with pride.
Rammstein – Ich will / I will it
(A tribute to Nazi Martyr Horst Wessel?)
Rammstein sounds are so harsh and militaristic, they make Roland Freisler und Joseph Goebbels sound almost mild and reserved in comparison. Besides the militaristic tone of the music did you notice the play on Nazi symbolism and concepts in the video? Things to look for and questions you might ask are:
What is the Roman-style memorial in the opening? Who is in the painting? Does it represent someone else? What is does metal object represent that they hold up at the memorial? Why are they wearing Mohawks? Why does Lindemann have a club foot in part of this video? Why does Lindemann’s walking stick have a death-head (Totenkopf) handle? What might the symbol on the chest of one person represent? What does the cogged-wheel halo around the head of the bomber mean? What does the howling-wolf image in the last few frames represent?
Some suggested interpretations are given in this link:
Rammstein’s symbols are never an exact copy of a Nazi symbol, but just close enough that someone familiar with the symbols understands what the allusion is. Also a single instance or any one of these symbols would not be enough to imply anything, but when they are used in combination with other symbols and widely throughout Rammstein’s material then one can reasonably assume that Rammstein is trying to send messages according to the common meaning of these symbols. Right wing extremists pick up on these signals and there are many among Rammstein’s fans. It happens too often in their material to be coincidental.
The most appropriate response to those that send Nazi signals and want to be taken seriously or just want to provoke others may be to laugh at them. In that spirit, just for fun – Here is a spoof of Rammstein:
Sometimes the Rammstein Fans pick up on the Nazi allusions and make their own video to complete the message found in the original video, as below. Rammstein keeps their lawyers busy trying to get rid of these telling videos, but just as soon as they get one video taken down another one pops up somewhere else on the Internet. See for yourself how well the music goes with a Nazi rally and rabid rant by the dear Führer. Rammstein loves to claim that they are spreading “German Culture” in the World. In the following videos, you can see that there is some truth to this claim, at least for certain aspects of “German Culture”.
Rammstein – Du Haßt / You Hate / Fan Video
This next two clips are dedicated to the Rammstein-Jugend (Rammstein-Youth), whom Rammstein compares to the Hitler-Youth in their performances, whether the fans realize it, or not, and who often act like the fascist Hitler-Youth in the way they insult, threaten and try to shout others down that are critical of Rammstein’s Nazi aesthetic.
Rammstein – Reise, Reise / Fan Video
A Tribute to our Brave Rammstein Youth
Rammstein frequently uses the colors of the Nazi dictatorship in their performances and other works. Here, some examples are shown. In this page we attempt to answer the historical question, was the dear Führer an early Rammstein-Fan?
Was the dear Führer
an early Rammstein Fan?
Click here for more info –
Rammstein’s Nazi Colors
The leader of Rammstein sometimes wears a uniform that looks rather like a Nazi SS military uniform and practices goose-stepping, apparently in anticipation of upcoming political changes in Germany. Here you can see Lindemann’s finely-honed Goose-stepping technique on stage:
See the Herzeleid Album cover here and find out why people thought the Rammstein members were depicted as Nazis on the cover.
Here are the basic symbols that are sometimes used to communicate a right-wing extremist political beliefs zu others.
“Du hasst / You hate” – A call for the destruction of democracy in Germany?
The Links video is often cited as proof that Rammstein has a leftist political orientation. However it is a military marching song and seems to have been inspired by Leni Riefenstahl’s Nazi propaganda film. Nazi-like symbols somehow got embedded in the same video that is supposed to prove them to be “leftists”. We point some of them out in this page.
Links, Zwo, Drei, Vier – The Rammstein-Youth march against a menace.
The Jewish Anti-Defamation League cited Rammstein for Stripped, because they used video from a well-known, Nazi propaganda film in the clip.
Keine Lust – An Ode to the “Land of the Fat and the Dumb” (Amerika!).
Here is some feedback from the Rammstein Fans. Nice kids, aren’t they?
This is a memorial clip for the tens of millions of victims of the Holocaust, which includes not only those many millions that were killed by the SS Einsatzgruppen or in the murder factories but also about 200,000 “inferior” Germans with mental disease or physical handicaps that were exterminated. That would have been only the start of the program to produce the mythical Aryan race, which was the dream of several gnostic occult organizations, like the Theosophists, the Order of the New Templars, the Teutonic Order, the Thule Society and eventually the Nazi Party. It may not be correct to call all Germans of that time “victims”, because the majority supported the Nazi program during much of the war, but many millions of Germans died or suffered enormously, who did not deserve it and that is also to be regretted. It is a lesson in how quickly and how totally a Gnostic occult organization (a cult) can, under the right circumstances, hijack a Nation and no country is immune to the ideas that Boyd Rice espouses in the interview near the top of this page.
Holocaust Memorial
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Dancing with Nazis 
This is a moderated forum and not an open forum. Due to the large number of messages received, only selected messages are posted here. If you only want to flame, abuse or repeat over and over that “Rammstein are not Nazis!!”, it may be better not to waste the time, because the message will very likely not be be posted. All messages are read, however, and if they seem relevant can change the content of the website, even if not posted. Many good tips have come from readers. — Moderator
P.S. For those of you who may be concerned, not posting your messages on this private site is not a violation of your constitutional rights and also does not equate to Nazism or Fascism. Thanks for you concern about civil rights.
Comment by Tristan — June 10, 2007 @ 5:30 pm |
Hello!
First of all I must say this is a great blog. And Im enjoying reading it. I cant say Im Rammstein fan but I listen to their music. And I think you`re definitely right about ‘coincidences’. Maybe they arent Nazi`s but for sure they put lots of Nazi symbols here and there. Propaganda? Way to make more money? I dont know. But what scares me most is the fact that Nazism is still alive and VERY popular.
So I wish you all the best and keep up the good work. I`ll surely read your blog from now on.
Cheers!
Comment by Emma — June 13, 2007 @ 7:28 am |
Very good observations, I was an ex-ramnstein fan but I started to notice things about the songs that simply did’nt match up with anything good. It occured to me that they have Nazi subliminal messages when I heard Reise, Reise for the first time. I noticed alot of connections to Nazism in their band logo and some of their songs for example Buck Dich. It was trouble translating the lyrics and even more decrypting them. It was probably fun for you to find all this information too. This is a good blog, I will tell my friends about it.
Comment by Rusty Shakelferd — June 14, 2007 @ 12:40 pm |
Hier ist noch mal der Sauerkraut Remix:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idkXaaLl9Sw
Und „The Beautiful People“:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCgBVvYDd_g
Dort kommt auch die Textpassage vor.
Comment by Basti — September 20, 2007 @ 6:13 am |
I think you are right about Rammstein! At first when I started reading your blog, I thought the connections you saw were just coincidences, but now I have changed my mind. There are just too many! Of course they would have to be very subtle about it, if they want to stay a popular music band. Thanks for your work, and I hope you add some more in the future.
Comment by Sparkling Horizon — October 1, 2007 @ 1:36 am |
Thanks SH, Yes there are too many references to be a coincidence and it is not an accident that they have so many Nazi and KKK fans. Those that are a little more familiar with the symbology recognized it a lot quicker. These pages are being re-edited all the time. There are a still a lot of improvements that can be made.
Comment by Tristan — October 1, 2007 @ 8:00 pm |
Un gran trabajo, asi que si son nazis estos maricas de rammstein.
Comment by kmilo — December 27, 2007 @ 7:50 am |
Hi there folks!
I like this forum sooo much, thanks to the creators.
Comment by nicknfshfdg — January 23, 2008 @ 8:53 am |
Hi Nick, Spasebo. You are certainly welcome. It is nice to get a comment every once in a while that is not full of curses, insults and irrelevant harangues, which have to be edited or deleted. Are you sure that you posted in the right forum? 🙂
Comment by Tristan — January 23, 2008 @ 9:16 am |
In time, europe will come to terms with nazism. They did some bad things (they aren’t alone in this), but they were fantastic warriors. As an englishman, if it came to the survival of my family, I’d rather have the german army on our side than any other nation. At the moment they are sleeping, but this will pass. In the future, we will need them as they were in the 1940s. And don’t dismiss Rammstein fans as inadequate misfits, I’m a family man with a good career, and I got on fine with other fans when I saw Rammstein in Paris. (Yes, the parisien crowd were singing along in german…)
Comment by andrew — February 3, 2008 @ 7:48 am |
Andrew, our German friends may have a different opinion. Certainly, the average German soldier was a pretty good soldier, but the “fantastic warrior” idea seems to be mostly juvenile myth. Most countries, like Denmark, The Netherlands and France, didn’t put up much of a fight and pretty much rolled over, until the Germans and allies got to the UK and Soviet Union. Matched against comparable militaries the Germans didn’t look so much like “fantastic warriors”. “Fantastic warriors” also don’t fight against overwhelming odds causing their country to be completely obliterated. That would be more appropriately called “stupid idiotic incompetent warriors”.
Comment by Tristan — February 3, 2008 @ 9:24 am |
Interview mit Paul Landers:
http://www.radiogoethe.org/conpresso/interviewsmr/detail.php?nr=5864&kategorie=interviewsmr
Comment by Edmund Sackbauer — February 3, 2008 @ 2:45 pm |
Edmund, habe das noch nicht alles durchgelesen. Aber wenn ich lese, dass sie deutsche Sprache und Kultur in der Welt fördern, dann fühle ich mich krank und bin bereit zu kotzen. Wenn das, was Rammstein macht, deutsche Kultur vertrete, dann geht es Deutschland wirklich schlimm. Es tut mir Leid für euch. Sie beuten nur einen oberflächlichen Stereotyp der Deutschen aus. Wenn man mit Deutschtum vertraut werden will, braucht man eine Festlegung von Jahre. Das, was Rammstein macht, ist sehr oberflächlich. Ihre junge Fans auf dieser Seite des Teiches sind bei weitem meistens keine Intellektuelle und wissen nicht viel über Deutschland außer, ZWK, Nazis und vielleicht Oktoberfest, und sie wissen ja auch nicht so viel über Oktoberfest, meisten nur ZWK und Nazis. Rammsteins harte Nazi-Ästhetik und Nazi-Anspielungen verstärken nur schlimme Stereotypen. Ziemlich armselig ist das. Wir haben unsere eigenen verkehrten Pop-Nazi Musiker. Hoffentlich wird Marilyn Manson nie es in Anspruch nehmen Amerika zu vertreten. Sie stellen wohl einen Teil Amerika dar, aber keinen Teil, den die Meisten von uns stolz darüber sind. Sind Deutsche stolz, dass Rammstein sie vertreten will? Ich habe viel Zweifel. So dumm sind die meisten Deutschen nicht. Rammstein sollte endlich mal Schluß mit ihrem Quatsch machen.
Comment by Tristan — February 3, 2008 @ 3:43 pm |
Wo steht, dass sie sich als Förderer der deutschen Sprache und Kultur sehen? Welche oberflächliche Stereotype beuten sie aus? Welche Studie beweist, dass amerikanische Fans von Rammstein “meistens keine Intellektuelle”(Zitat von dir) sind? Herr Landers meinte, dass viele Amis, die Rammstein entdeckten, sich auf einmal für Deutschland, die deutsche Kultur und Sprache interessierten. Das ist nicht selbstverherrlichend – ganz im Gegenteil: ich find´s gut. So seht ihr Amis nämlich, dass Deutschland nicht nur Oktoberfest und Weißwurscht ist. Rammstein sind nun mal Deutsche, wen sollen sie denn sonst vertreten? Die Türken? Südafrikaner?
Comment by Edmund Sackbauer — February 4, 2008 @ 3:29 am |
Edmund, habe es nie in Anspruch genommen, dass ich der große Förderer der deutsche Sprache & Kultur bin, wie im Gegenteil Rammstein und Du offensichtlich es machen. Wozu, bin kein Deutscher? Ich beschreibe nur die Auswirkung, die Rammstein auf uns Amerikaner haben. Ich habe mit Rammstein-Fans in den letzten Monaten tagtäglich unterhalten und ich brauche keine unabhängige Untersuchung, mir zu beweisen, dass sie meistens keine großen Intellektuellen sind. Rammstein schienen nicht sehr viele Fans in Amerika zu haben. Einige junge Amerikaner freuen sich aber verkehrt auf ihrer übertriebenen Nazi-Ästhetik, ob sie es bewusst anerkennen oder nicht. Arrogant wie ich bin, behaupte ich nur, dass Nazismus nicht das Beste der deutschen Kultur ist. Eine harte Ästhetik kann aber dennoch eine gewisse Anziehungskraft haben und das ist schon vorher in Amerika geschehen, wie man hier sieht.
Frühere begeisterten amerikanischen Fans der harten Seite der deutschen Kultur
Es hangt nur davon ab, wie Deutsche sich in der Welt darstellen wollen. Kultur ist nicht statisch und die Deutschen von heute werden es bestimmen, wie in Zukunft deutsche Kultur der Welt aussieht. Ausgerechnet exemplarisch schienen Rammstein mir nicht. Wir werden sehen, ob irgendeiner Rammstein-Fan auf meine Bemerkungen sich reagiert, weil sie von Rammstein so sehr begeistert sind, die tolle deutsche Sprache zu lernen. Vielleicht gibt es einen Haufen der deutsch-sprachigen Rammstein-Fans von Amerika, oder?
Comment by Tristan — February 4, 2008 @ 7:42 am |
Hallo Tristan,
i appreciate your expertness in german language (wish my english was so good) and take it as a challenge to do my comment in english. I hope, it does not sound to strange and that i might succed in avoiding major missunderstandings. First: i came to your website searching for material about Rammstein. I am not a dedicated fan and expert of Rammstein, for a long time i knew only some songs of them, which i estimated as interesting as controversial. A more close study started, when i met a young man who is a fan in my work as a psychotherapist, and later, when i found some titles as mp3s on an old harddisk. In this context i was curious about the band and the context, read the lyrics an so on. There was a debate in Germany to whether or not R. has any affinity to nazism. As far as i see it, this has stopped, although there is still criticism with different topics. Some people say they thank Rammstein (and other artists, of course) for giving expression to extrem mental states, so that these can be talked about and handled in a better way. I’m going to say some short sentences about this later. So i have a much more individualistic view on this topic. I have no connection to Rammstein beyond this interest and my comment shall touch more general aspects, beyond a special band or artist. I think, Till Lindemann wouldn’t like to be washed white, but i don’t fear to be besieged by angry fans if i washed a little bit to much. This could be different with Marilyn Manson, so it may be of advantage for me, not to meddle with America’s inner affairs…
I agree with you that there should be an open discussion on such kind on performance, which includes the use of nazi, fascist, satanist or other hate oriented symbolism and themes. The effect on the climate in the society and perhabs on certain types of crime is one important aspect in this topic.
Your point of view is strongly centered around concepts about introducing nazi- white power- or other superiority and denigrating and contemptful ideologies and their emblems, with the assumption, that the people in question are willing to promote these attitudes and ideologies.
You introduce your interpretations on the work of M.M. (B.W.), Arnie and Rammstein as possible ones, as you go on demonstrating such possibilities, with disclaiming comments. In the case of Rammstein, you avoid very strictly any reference to the off-stage existence of them. You point out, that Reinhard Heydrich was a cultivated and courteous man in his private life, what didn’t prevent him from being one of the most unscrupulous among the nazi leaders. So far it’s true. If you would compare someone who is n o t a nazi in Germany with that man, you would get very insulted reactions and maybe a libel action, any other communication would be terminated. (same is valid for your Rammstein-spoof, people who are n o t nazis need a good portion of humour to stand things like that. With real nazis you may have nothing lost, but in other cases you loose the chance to talk with them about your cause). The important difference: R.H. was feared in all context by any people (even nazis) who were obliged to deal with him, perhabs his familymembers were rare exceptions. The point here is that he was alltime that horrible man he was, but sometimes more cultivated, what didn’t change very much. The reference to the private life of T.L.and co. means something different: your interpretations on the Rammstein-material implies, that there is an organizing force behind it, that structures it to highly sophisticated propaganda. I.m.h.o. a great amount of the interpretations cannot stand if one doesn’t think the people behind it to be convinced and well informed followers of a specific ideology and it’s background. In other words: interpretation without external criteria stay tentative, if there is not any other evidence for nazism (or equivalents) at the authors side, some interpretations my collapse, not work anymore.
I remember, there has been a discussion on hidden messages i.e. backward recordings in rock songs in the USA. The point in that is the conviction that it is possible to influence people, to brainwash them by easily administered subliminal messages in a way that is more powerful than their personal history, their every day lifestuation, their convictions, their belief and so on. Conservative people seem to like this notion, maybe because they see a chance to explain problems that shouldn’t exist in their world by a powerful extern influence. I think we ought to be very careful with concepts that imply heavy and easily generated accusations with very low empirical evidence. By the way, leading existing hate to a special target can be much easier than making people hate.
Why do i mention this? I see the risk that your interpretations on the material in question could get into similar shallow water. This would impair your cause to start an open discussion in this field. If an impression comes up that the artists are judged on runaway-interpretations, it may become very difficult to adress people who could otherwise be included in the discussion. Lindemann told in an interview, that his teenage daughter once asked him whether Rammstein is a nazi-band (because of the use of the Riefenstahl – material), what made him recognize that they had gone too far in some points. OK, this is only hear-say and you my think he should be asked in this way much more often, but it makes a difference if someone is movable at all. Maybe some thoughts down will give some reason to a careful optimism.
In my personal view, i see some “hostility-bias” in your interpretations. Some points maybe only detail, but they influence the atmosphere. For example, the play upon the words “scheiden /Scheide” has not that pejorative implications that you imlply, “Scheide” is not a four-letter-word (you can even count…), it is even used in medical contexts, if you don’t decide to be scientfic and say “vagina”. It is also not a word that would be used by lovers. Of course, we have some really mean words, that decent people like me don’t even know, but they exist and T.L. can mount them in his lyrics if he decides it to be necessary. In that song, he didn’t. This is only a small exemple which is relativly easy to explain. Looking at the overall tendency seems to me more important than picking the best example. No doubt,Rammstein’s material deals with hostility and rejection, but i think it is important to look whether these are the final words.
An other point is the question about a revanchist attitude against the USA in Germany, and in Rammstein in special. If you ask me, i think it is overestimated. Of course, i’m no nazi and have no contact to a nazi-milieu. To the extend of my knowledge, this is also true for the members of Rammstein, to be a nazi takes more than contamination with Helnwein. There are prejudices about Americans, there are also selfprejudices about Germans here, often we say that a special problem is worst in Germany, a propagandatrick that was already used by Friedrich Spee von Langenfeld, who wrote the “cautio criminalis”, a book against witch-hunting. For people, who are said to be fat and dumb, it would be even more remarkable to have won world war 2, made the air-bridge to Berlin (which impressed many people in Germany, even a lot of former nazi-followers) and put men on the moon. For most people here, there are also many cultural contributions from America that they wouldn’t like to miss. Of course, there is a lot of criticism from the left wing against US politics, but this is a thing very different from nazi- or white power attitudes. I think, it’s a prejudices to expect a lot of resentment (of the type you decribed) against America beyond of small circles of right wing-extremists (that exist, unfortunatly). OK, this is getting long, relations between two complex societies is a theme that doesn’t fit in a short (??) comment. In my view, “Keine Lust” primary describes a mental state with paralysing ambivalence and selfdisgust, to be “kalt” in this context means not yet dead, but is much worse than to be frigid. Maybe the video takes some aspects of this away.
I promised to bring some more general aspects into this discussion. I’m going to offer another point of view to explain the production and consumption of music, performance and other kinds of art with strong reference and inclusion of agression, hate, horror and destructivness, often from a point of self-adulation. I.m.h.o. this is a form of thrill, in german we use the term “Angst-Lust” (remember german “Lust” means desire and pleasure). Normally this concept is used in the context of external danger. People seek dangerous situations to experience their victory over this danger (bungee-jumping, real dangerous sports, even things that jeopardize other people…). The point here is to apply this to internal dangers (dangerous feelings, impulses, mental states and so on). The aim in it is to dive into things like that (to partly identify) and to emerge again, unchanged, to prove that you can survive it as the person you are (as in other dangerous activities, people normally don’t want to get hurt, but to survive). Fascism, nazi-ideology in special and related topics have given a new, ultimate shape to our concepts of evil, badness and hatred. They gave also a new scale for destructve selfidealisation. It’s not a new phenomenon that some people decorate themselves with symbols of hate, danger, destruction or disgust (i can stand this, maybe i canuse it), often without much conscious reflection about it. Gazing at accidents is related to this, a terrible accident was the origin of the name of this band
This does not mean that there is no danger in it. There is an old controversy in regard to the effect of confrontation with the horrible. Aristoteles in his theory of the theatre thought that there is catharsis, the counterposition finds it’s modern formulation in the concept of learning by imitation (A. Bandura). It’s obvious that neither concept can explain the complexity that we experience with our fellow human beings and ourselves, of course. Catharsis presupposes some psychic abilities (to keep the thing symbolic instead of real, to keep identification partial and and and…), learning by imitation is also connected to a lot of conditions (whom do you imitate, whom do you want to be similar to? and much more). So, there will not be a simple answer how to handle it in a contructive way, in the individual case it is not so easy to anticipate what will happen with some people in problematic psychic conditions. What may be processed with a cathartic result by one person may be one more step to a catastrophe in an other case. We have also to think about the tendency increase the dose and possible consequences of that. An other aspect is that our virtual worlds weaken the frontier between phantasy and reality.
Back to our subject: why do i prefer this concept over the explanation, that those people (let’s include Rammstein and some aspects of Helnwein, with M.M. there may be other aspects of additional importance) do deliberate and aimed propaganda for hate -ideologies? We find in their work changing identifications, with perpetrators, with victims and with voyeurs, sometimes in rapid change or simultaneously (Rammstein:”Mein Teil”). It’s not my opinion that the victim-identification in these cases leads to denigration of victims, sometimes an identification of the spectator with the victim is forced, not by explicit statements, but by the scene. Also, there is no consistent selfidealisation, this is broken again and again, not very suitable to present a new race of superiority! A nazi presenting the vision of the new “Reich” as the new shit is hard to be imaginened. I think an examination of single elements would be controversial, but i hope we can agree about the fact in general. For aimed propaganda this would be highly counterintentional. Hate propaganda has to avoid any identification of the spectator with the victim and to produce a consistent idealisation. To stay short, this has to be aphoristic, and a certain amount of good will is needed to examin this notion. Of course, the question is about the effect on the average listener or even the vulnerable listener, not only how people like us react.
This doesn’t bring a blanco-excuse or stop the discussion at the view of the author or artist in question, just the opposit, artist who are concerned with the effects of their work ought to be willing to engage in an open discussion. . Moreover, an open discussion can correct some effects of the reception of problematic art in individuals, even if the artists don’t see the amount of theit influence and responsibility. I am sceptical about the chance to reach people, who have drifted away already into conditions of isolation and hate. Even taking away hateful music, computergames and things like that will not bring them back before a catastrophe takes place. We have to find ways to keep contact, strong enough, but not intrusiv.
There is still your objection against an exploitation of historical themes without respect for the people who sufferd and died in that context. I think, our tendency to make the horror manageable is indeed a rival to this respect. It is a cultural task to restore this respect, and we have to do it again and again. While i am critical about your low threshold in identfying nazi- and alike tendencies, i appreciate your efforts in this.
So, i have to stop an put my oldfashioned Dictionary away
hope, this comment is understandable without too much effort and gives some impulses to the dicussion.
Eumel
Comment by Joachim Gundelach (Eumel) — February 4, 2008 @ 1:04 pm |
Eumel, such “shock bands” such as Rammstein have been using Nazi/Totalitarian symbolism in their performances for about 25 years or longer. It started about the time that the Nazi Skinhead movement started. Boyd Rice and Laibach were principal founders of the” industrial” genre and they both used Nazi symbols and allusions in their performances, as is pointed out in the website. People like Boyd Rice and the group Laibach were not as overt as the Nazi skinhead groups. Some groups, such as Rammstein and M. Manson, that make music related to or influenced by “Industrial music still use Nazi/totalitarian undertones in their music. I believe this is not a very controversial idea, except maybe to the fans. You don’t have to be a Nazi to want to play around with this symbolism and it produces a reaction in the audiences that the group may like to exploit for the purposes of making money and/or for their personal pleasure.
The argument whether the bands are Nazis that put Nazi undertones in their performances is not very meaningful, because you can’t prove it unless the band wants to admit it. So, it is a circular argument. However, there is that clip of Boyd Rice being interviewed by a Top Nazi in the US about how they can use this “white” music to promote an “Aryan subculture” which is quite suggestive that there was/is some interest in promoting such a political agenda. So, it also can not be completely ruled out. However, it is not necessary to assume the band is Nazi to criticize what they are doing.
We do things differently in the US than you do in Germany. In the US it is much more acceptable to criticize public figures. For example, Gerhard Schröder would never have won a suit in the US against the periodicals that claimed that he died his hair. In fact, it never would have occurred to any such politician here that he could sue about that. So, there is not much concern that Till could sue successfully in the US because he is compared with the Nazi, Reinhold Heydrich. It does not seem that Rammstein is being honest with the public with regards to their using Nazi undertones in their music. So, not having a dialog with the band would also not seem to be a terrible loss. Rammstein is still controversial in Germany. Last Summer there was an attempt to put them on the index, that is to ban them, which was just denied in October.
What is being done here is criticism of Rammstein for the Nazi suggestions that they make. Any Nazi allusions that are put in the performances are ambiguous and can be explained away, when the band wants. However, that does not mean that possible interpretations can not be documented here and put in context. Also, it is desired to remind people who the Nazis were, what they did, and why it is wrong to exploit what the Nazis did for a political agenda, for self-aggrandizement or just for simple greed.
I am also critical of your tolerance of perverse exploitation of Nazism. Another ethnic German that alluded to Nazism in his work was Max Frisch, the playwright from Switzerland. In an ambiguous parody, “Biedermann und die Brandstifter”, that could be interpreted to be about the Nazis. Frisch pointed out that the Bourgeoisie does not like to deal with such unpleasant subjects as Nazism until it was too late and that was what allowed them to come to power. This does not mean that Rammstein or M. Manson or even Arnold Schwarzenegger is a serious threat to western civilization (so far), but it is never too early to criticize people that belittle the crimes of the Nazis and do not respect the suffering of their vicitms.
There is no reason that people should not be criticized that seem to be promoting interest in Nazism among young people or devaluing the meaning of this symbolism, whether they are Nazis themselves or not. Criticism of Rammstein and others for their use of references to Nazism or totalitarianism is the purpose of this website. Please forgive me, if I may seem somewhat hostile, because it appears to me that some people are belittling the horrible deaths of about 10 million innocent men, women and children in industrialized mass murder factories and the loss of life of as many as 50 million total by shooting them into killing pits, starvation, neglect or in combat. I know that some people think that one should not take such small matters so seriously.
I do not blame all Germans then or now for what happened, but Germans do have a greater responsibility than some others to remember.
Comment by Tristan — February 4, 2008 @ 5:01 pm |
Wir Deutschen haben Rammstein und ihr habt Marilyn Manson?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=C7NqRRHiXrQ
Du musst das Ende sehen, da ist eine ziemlich komische Aussage von ihm und von einem anderen Typen.
Comment by Basti — February 5, 2008 @ 8:34 am |
Oh, noooo! Marilyn Manson thinks we need him to keep American democracy functioning? How was American democracy ever able to get started and survive for more than two centuries without Marilyn Manson’s help? Now, I have to puke twice!
Freedom of speech requires that the Government not ban expression, but it does not at all require that everyone accept it without criticism and especially it does not require that people accept the commercial exploitation of such “speech” without criticism.
Comment by Tristan — February 5, 2008 @ 5:33 pm |
Fuktioniert eure Demokratie jetzt besser, wo ihr ihn jetzt habt? 🙂
Ich glaube er hat ein bisschen übertrieben mit seiner Aussage.
Ob Amerika oder die Welt ihn jetzt wirklich braucht, bezweifle ich mal.
Comment by Basti — February 8, 2008 @ 10:47 am |
Basti, I have not personally noticed that there has been a very great improvement in the quality of the democracy here since Marilyn Manson has been providing his democracy-improvement service to the public. However, I think it does show how people that have deviant views sometimes think. They believe that their rights are being violated unless other people accept their behaviors and way of thinking without criticism. Criticism by private persons of Marilyn Manson’s views and behavior is not a violation of his rights. It is an assertion of the critic’s rights. The Nazis also claimed at one time that they were bringing “freedom” and “democracy” to Germany, but the Nazis concepts of “freedom” and “democracy” were not quite the same as the commonly accepted definitions. In this qoute from “Mein Kampf” Adolf Hitler extolls “true German democracy” compared to “Jewish democracy”:
I think Manson also has his own curious definition of the word “democracy”. I would hate to think that democracy depends on Marilyn Manson, who has been known to threaten to kill those that displease him.
Comment by Tristan — February 8, 2008 @ 11:17 am |
“Some interesting historical parallels can be drawn between this phenomenon and the Anarchist Movement of the late 1800’s to early 1900’s. … unstable people, often disaffected loners, were inflamed enough to go out and assassinate several European and American heads of state, including Archduke Ferdinand of Austria in 1914.”
This is plain wrong. Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in a carefully planned operation involving several members of Crna Ruka, an organisation operating with the connivance of Serbian military intelligence. Young and naive though Gavrilo Princep may have been, he was certainly no unstable, disaffected loner.
Comment by Certic — February 11, 2008 @ 9:14 am |
Good point, thanks for the comment. The Columbine mass murderers were not loners, either, and their operation was also planned well in advance. Instead of “unstable, disaffected loners”, how about if we use a term such as, “unstable disaffected extremists and fanatics”. That would work better for you, would it not? By the way, not everyone reads all three sections as avidly as you and for that reason some of the same information appears in all three sections, when it applies.
Comment by Tristan — February 11, 2008 @ 10:57 am |
stop calling yourself american!!! america is a continent! not a country. i am american! argentinien. i hate yankees saying “i am american”. please, stop that once and for all
Comment by logan — February 11, 2008 @ 11:59 am |
Logan, more accurately, you are a “South American”. “American” is the short name for “citizen of the United States of America”. I will check my atlas, but there does not seem to be a continent called just “America” only a “North America” and “South America”. No no cares very much, if someone from Argentina likes it or not that we call ourselves “Americans”. Get over it.
Comment by Tristan — February 11, 2008 @ 12:55 pm |
Tristan: Du kommst aus den USA. Wie sehen die Amerikaner Rammstein? Wäre neugierig zu wissen, wie die, die du getroffen hast, waren. Aber ich finde es OK, wenn die Leute wegen Rammstein Deutsch lernen wollen, Deutschland besser kennen lernen wollen. Rammstein sagten mal “Wir haben in Paris vor sehr viel Leuten gespielt, sie sangen unsere Texte mit. Wir sind die Pioniere der deutsch-französischen Freundschaft.”
Da ich in Deutschland wohne, habe ich nicht so viel Distanz zu Rammstein wie du.
Comment by Lina-Tillina — February 15, 2008 @ 9:49 am |
Rammstein ist hier eine Rand-Gruppe und hat nicht sehr viele amerikanische Fans. Ich habe in den letzten Jahren Hunderten von Deutschlernenden sowie auch Deutschmuttersprachler kennengelernt, weil ich an einer paar Deutschunterhaltungsgruppen teilnehme, und habe noch nie einen Studenten kennengelernt, der sagte, dass er Deutsch von wegen Rammstein lernt. Rammstein ist unglaublich aufgeblasen, wenn sie brüsten, dass sie deutsche Kultur und sogar deutsch-französische Freundschaft fördern. Fast alle hier Deutsch lernen, weil sie deutsche Verwandten haben oder weil sie in Europa Reisen wollen oder weil sie sich im allgemein für Deutschland interessieren, aber nicht weil Rammstein ihre bombastische Nazismus-anspielende Musik machen. Hier gibt es einen kürzen Clip über Pioniere der deutsch-französischen Freundschaft. Deutsch-französische Freundschaft begann schon in den spät 50en schon vor Rammstein geboren wurden und du kannst selbst feststellen, dass Rammstein im den Clip über Pioniere der Deutsch-französischen Freundschaft irgendwie nicht auftauchen.
Comment by Tristan — February 15, 2008 @ 12:30 pm |
Winston Churchill wrote the six volumes of his monumental work, The Second World War, without mentioning a program of mass-murder and genocide. Maybe it slipped his mind. Churchill’s mother was a Jewess – so was he.
Comment by Adolf — February 22, 2008 @ 6:24 am |
Ich bin durch die vielen Kommentare auf youtube auf deinen Blog hier gestoßen und wollte mir mal selbst ein Bild von deiner Meinung machen. Das was ich dort zu lesen bekam, überraschte mich doch ziemlich. Erwartete ich doch eigentlich eine dieser üblichen Hasstiraden wie man sie zu Dutzenden im Netz finden kann, so bot sich mir hier hingegen das Werk eines hinsichtlich der deutschen Geschichte recht gut informierten Autors. Dennoch musste ich feststellen, dass deine Interpretationen bezüglich der verwendeten Symbolik der Bands Rammstein und Marilyn Manson, nicht einfach nur sinnlos überzogen, sondern schlichtweg falsch sind. Grundsätzlich stimme ich mit dir überein, dass das Bild des stereotypen Deutschen vor allem in den USA geprägt ist vom teutonischen und gefühllosen Germanen. Machen wir uns nichts vor, Eigenschaften wie Freundlichkeit oder Gastfreundschaft traut man uns einfach nicht zu. Wenn dann noch ein Export wie die Band Rammstein als Referenz für „Typisch Deutsch“ herhalten muss, verwundert es jedoch kaum, warum dieses Bild sich in den Köpfen so vieler hartnäckig festgesetzt hat. Daher sollte man sich meines Erachtens gerade im Fall Rammstein, genauer mit den Hintergründen befassen, warum sie in dieser martialischen Aufmachung auftreten. Ist es wirklich das Bild des typischen Durchschnitts-Deutschen, das sie versuchen zu suggerieren? Vielleicht sogar das des Deutschen im Dritten Reich? Wohl kaum! Viel eher wird dieser Stereotyp des Deutschen durch das harte, provokative Auftreten bis ins Groteske überzeichnet und damit persifliert. Ich könnte mit meiner Meinung natürlich vollends daneben liegen. Dennoch denke ich, dass ich mit meiner Interpretation näher liege, als du mit deiner Nazi-Verschwörungstheorie. Vor allem, wenn man sich deine Argumente etwas genauer ansieht.
Fangen wir einmal mit der Genrebezeichnung an, welche du aufgeführt hast: „Neue-Deutsche-Härte“. Du vermutest, wenn es eine „Neue“ Deutsche Härte gibt, dann wäre es ja nur logisch, gäbe es auch eine „Alte“ Deutsche Härte. Natürlich hast du auch eine solche gefunden. Nämlich die harsche Art, wie zum Beispiel Goebbels seine Reden hielt. Du hast dafür ja auch zwei eindeutige Videos eingefügt, wie damals Reden im Dritten Reich geführt wurden und natürlich gleich eine Verbindung zu Till Lindemanns Gesang gezogen.
Tut mir Leid es dir mit folgenden Worten sagen zu müssen: Aber mit deiner Vermutung hast du leider einen eindeutigen Griff ins Klo gemacht. Neue-Deutsche-Härte hat zwar etwas mit Gesang zu tun, aber mitnichten etwas mit einer besonders harten Art zu singen.
Lass mich dir einmal den Begriff „Neue-Deutsche-Härte“(NDH) erklären. Er bezieht sich nicht, wie du vermutet hast, auf eine so genannte „Alte-Deutsche-Härte“ (ein Begriff der mir übrigens bisher nicht geläufig war), sondern auf eine in den 80er Jahren im deutschsprachigen Raum populäre Musikform, die „Neu-Deutsche-Welle“ (NDW) genannt wurde. Sicher ist dir die NDW-Größe Nena ein Begriff, die mit 99 Red Balloons sogar in den USA einen Hit landen konnte. NDW-Bands sangen grundsätzlich deutsch. Und hier ist der Zusammenhang zur NDH zu finden. Denn ursprünglich war es für Industrial-Metal Bands unüblich deutsch zu singen. Die ersten Bands die den Begriff Neue-Deutsche-Härte bekannt machten, waren Oomph!, Die Krupps und Megaherz.. Wenn du dich mit diesen Bands etwas genauer beschäftigst, wirst du feststellen, dass man bei denen keinerlei Anzeichen irgendeiner rechten Orientierung feststellen kann.
Des öfteren beschreibst du das „Zahnrad“-Symbol als Indiz für Sympathien zum Neofaschismus. Zugegeben, die verlauste NPD benutzt es in ihrem Logo. Aber das Technische Hilfswerk (THW) zum Beispiel benutzt es ebenso. Das THW ein Naziverein? Nicht wirklich…
Die gekreuzten Hammer findet nicht nur bei den rechtsextremen Hammer-Skins Verwendung. Vor allem ist es das Symbol für Bergbau. Den Vogel hast du aber mit deiner Assoziation zu den Totenköpfen abgeschossen. Nazi-Chic! Ist das dein Ernst??? Johnny Depp stellt in Pirates of the Caribbean also in Wirklichkeit gar keinen Piraten dar, sondern einen getarnten SS-Offizieren?! Schließlich bekommen wir in diesen Filmen ja Totenköpfe zu genüge präsentiert. Der Totenkopf als Gefahrensymbol bedeutet dem zufolge wahrscheinlich auch nicht: „Vorsicht: Giftig!“, sondern: „Achtung: Nazi!“
Du merkst: Nicht alle Symbole, die damals vom Naziregime verwendet wurden, haben heute noch die gleiche Bedeutung.
So nebenbei: Wieso benutzt du eigentlich den Nicknamen „Tristan“? Würde ich das Spiel so spielen, wie du es tust, müsste ich dir ebenfalls eine Provokation unterstellen. Sicher hast du schon etwas von Richard Wagner und seine Oper „Tristan und Isolde“ gehört. Zum zentralen Stellenwert, den Wagner bei Adolf Hitler hatte, muss ich dir sicher nichts erzählen. Schließlich hast du dich in deinem Blog bisher gut informiert über die deutsche Geschichte gegeben. Sollte es sich bei Tristan hingegen nicht um einen Nicknamen handeln, sondern um deinen tatsächlichen, würde ich an deiner Stelle, mal deine Eltern im Blick behalten. Wer weiß, vielleicht findest du bei ihnen ja auch latente rechtsextreme Anzeichen.
In diesem Sinne, Eolfin
PS: Eolfin ist für gegen gegen gegen Rechts!
Comment by Eolfin — February 22, 2008 @ 10:32 am |
Werde mehr später schreiben. Der Name “Tristan” hat aber nichts mit Provokation zu tun, oder Wagner oder meine Eltern, die gar keine Deutschen sind. Aber ich las gerade damals das Buch „Tristan und Isolde“ Gottfried von Strassburg, als ich be YouTube zuerst anmeldete, um etwas nette Musik auf Deutsch zu suchen. Die Geschichte von Tristan viel alter als die Wagner-Opern. Es gefällt mir zuweilen in der Freizeit, Deutsche Literatur zu lesen oder zu lesen versuchen. Manchmal ist es zu schwierig für meine Deutschkenntnis. In YouTube habe ich aber das fruchtbare militärische Geheul von Rammstein entdeckt, was ich nicht ausgerechnet für das Beste der deutschen Kultur halte. Es war nur zufällig, dass es mir „Tristan“ eingefallen hat als ich zuerst anmeldete.
Comment by Tristan — February 22, 2008 @ 11:02 am |
Natürlich ist mir bewusst, dass du mit dem Namen “Tristan” keine Provokation beabsichtigt hast und den Namen eher unbewusst gewählt hast. Aber du widersprichst dir damit selbst. Einen Gürtel mit einer Totenkopfschnalle getragen von einem Österreichern bezeichnest du hingegen schon als Provokation. Mit dem Namen Tristan wollte ich dir nur zeigen, mit welchen unsinnigen Interpretationen du argumentierst.
Oben bezeichnest du Rammstein als “furchtbares militärisches Geheule” – und genau da liegt das Problem. Durch deine offensichtliche Antipathie verfällst du immer wieder in Subjektivität. Souverän ist das nicht. Dabei versuchst du doch genau so zu wirken.
Comment by Eolfin — February 22, 2008 @ 3:12 pm |
Ist es wirklich schwierig zu verstehen? Es ist nicht nur einen Österreicher und Privat-Bürger in der Strasse, den ich als Provokation empfände, wenn er einen Gürtel mit Totenkopf-Anschnallen in der Strasse träge. Es ist wenn mein verdammter Gouverneur so was auf dem Deckblatt von Time Magazine trägt, dass ich es als Provokation empfinde. Er ist auch Sohne eines Nazis und Braun Hemdes, der mit dem Massenmord in der Ostfront sicher mitmachte. Über die Erinnerung von diesem Massenmord von Millionen der Unschuldigen bin ich freilich nicht „Objektiv“. Wenn diese erbärmliche Idioten wie Schwarzenegger, Rammstein oder Manson wollen in den Massenmedien den Holocaust spotten, sollten sie nicht ausgerechnet überrascht werden wenn jemand sie mit Nazis vergleicht und an die Verbrechen der Nazis erinnert. Sie haben das verdient. So siehe ich es, wenn sie Nazi-Aufspielungen in den Massenmedien machen. Es fehlt ihnen Respekt von den Opfern des Massenmordes, besonders weil Schwarzeneggers Vater williger Mitmacher war. Wenn das euch nicht gefehlt, ist es mir ganz egal.
Comment by Tristan — February 22, 2008 @ 4:29 pm |
Ehrlich gesagt ist es wirklich verdammt schwierig zu verstehen. Wie kann sich jemand wie du die Dreistigkeit heraus nehmen, jemanden zu unterstellen, er würde dem Holocaust spotten, ohne dabei auch nur ein einziges brauchbares Argument zu liefern. Alles was hier auf deinem Blog zu finden ist, ist eine Reihe von FEHLINTERPRETATIONEN und HALBWAHRHEITEN.
Sauer aufstoßen lässt mich vor allem dein letzter Eintrag. Soll dein Kommentar zu Schwarzeneggers Vater wirklich so gemeint sein, wie ich in jetzt interpretiere, so unterstellst du ja nahezu jedem Deutschen und Österreichern eine Mitschuld an den Verbrechen die vor über 60 Jahren geschehen sind. Schließlich wirst du bei 75% aller deutschen Familien jemanden finden, der zu damaliger Zeit an der Ostfront oder sonstwo für das Deutsche Reich zu kämpfen hatte. Es ist unsere Pflicht als Deutscher und als Mensch uns stehts daran zu erinnern und die Opfer des Holocausts und die des Krieges in Ehren zu halten. Aber nach 60 Jahren wird es langsam mal Zeit, dass wir von dieser Schuld losgesprochen werden. Wenn der Öffentlichkeit ein Blog wie dieser dargeboten wird, dann vermute ich mal, dass es diesem langwierigem Prozess alles andere als gut tun wird. Ob es dir jetzt egal ist, oder nicht.
Comment by Eolfin — February 24, 2008 @ 7:56 am |
Eolfin, for exactness this will be in English. Remembering history does not mean that today’s Germans are guilty of anything. We do know, however, that the memory of some of today’s Germans is not always so good and may sometimes need some help from us outsiders. Yes, you understand correctly, Rammstein’s “satirical” use of Nazi undertones absolutely amounts to a gross mockery of the crimes that the Nazis committed. (And the same goes for the American, Marilyn Manson.) It is like a subtle “Holocaust denial”. Reconcilialation with the German people should not require us to forget that history. We won’t forget it in 500 years, whether Germans like it or not. What happened on the eastern front was an open secret. It was generally known there by the soldiers that the Jews and others were being exterminated. Only a small fraction of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were ever punished or have a record of commiting war crimes. People commonly joked about the Jews being “resettled to heaven”. German children skipped alongside Jews and chanted taunts at them as they were being taken to cattle cars to be shipped off for extermination in murder factories. I have seen pre-war photographs of floats in Carneval parades that depicted Jews being lynched and other humiliating images of Jews. Hitler declared before the war in a speech that he would eliminate Jewry in Europe if war broke out. He was clear what he meant to do in “Mein Kampf” which sold millions of copies before the War. He suggested towards the end of Mein Kampf that it would have been better, if Germany had gassed thousands of Jewish civilians during the first world war. Do you believe that we think that Germans were not generally aware what was written in Mein Kampf and what was happening to the Jews that were being shipped to the east during Winter in cattle cars without food or supplies? That the Germans weren’t aware of the millions of foreign slaves in German or the hundreds of concentration camps in Germany? That the Germans weren’t aware that the booty stripped from the lands of eastern Europe and brought back to Germany did not cause millions to stave or die for want of supplies in eastern Europe? The German population in large part supported Hitler and his methods, at least after he started having successes. Hitler intentionally made the German people acessories to his crimes so that they would not turn against him at some point. That is why the Germans did not give up in the East. The German population had an idea that gorss atrocities had been committed on the population in Eastern Europe and they expected the same brutal treatment out of revenge from the Soviets. Nobody gives a damn, if you don’t like it that we remember this history and that we remind you of it from time to time, when you want to act, as if it did not happen that way. We should be grateful to Rammstein and Arnold Schwarzenegger, however, for giving us this opportunity to review this history. (sarcasm intended.)
Comment by Tristan — February 24, 2008 @ 8:46 am |
Ich glaube nicht, dass ich mich von dir über die deutsche Geschicht aufklären lassen muss. Im Gegensatz zu dir, bin ich hier in Deutschland mit dem Wissen über die Verbrechen im Dritten Reich aufgewachsen und konnte Einzelheiten aus “erster” Hand erfahren. Ich brauchte keine Bücher, kein Schindler`s List oder sonst irgend welche Medien, um etwas über diese Zeit zu erfahren. Hast du jemals mit jemanden gesprochen, der die Nazizeit miterlebt hat? Hast du jemals von jemanden erfahren, wie es war in seiner Wohnung über Monate eine jüdische Familie vor den Nazis zu verstecken? Nein? Nun, ich schon! Also versuch nicht, mich zu belehren!!
Comment by Eolfin — February 24, 2008 @ 9:45 am |
Eofin, I got my information at Dachau, the City Museum of Munich, the Jewish Museum in Berlin, Typograhie des Terrors in Berlin (the old Gestapo HQ near Wilhelmstrasse), at Sachsenhausen and from numerous books and documentaries in German and English and also at national resistance museums in Oslo, Paris and Amsterdamm. So yes, I have communicated with quite a few people that experienced these things directly. I do not care at all, if you like being reminded what the real history is, or not. We do not concede the rememberance of this history only to Germans like you that would rather forget it or revise it in their favor and then pretend that they can be the only authority. If someone, hid Jews in Germany it was the exception and not the general rule. The rule was widespread prejudice, redicule, discrimination, dehumanization and pogroms until finally it was attempted to exterminate them in industrialized human slaughter factories and this did not just happen to Jews but other minorities and political opponents, as well. I understand completely why some Germans want to forget or revise this history, but it will not work here, sorry. Maybe you would have better luck elsewhere. The purpose of this website is not to give revisionists and Holocaust deniers a voice. No more of your revisionist statements will be posted here. So, don’t bother to reply.
Comment by Tristan — February 24, 2008 @ 11:00 am |
Edmund, some of my ancestors were probably slave holders as well as slaves and also Indians. We Americans are pretty multi-culti. I am not scared to face the truth of what happened in US history, as some Germans seem to be scared to face their history. Hopefully, some day you will be able to grow out of it and be able to face the truth. It’s important to remember it as it really happened and not some silly fairy tale that some Germans want to remember. It’s human nature. The conditions were just ripe in Germany and parts of Europe. Read a book, for God’s sake. Hitler was pretty clear in Mein Kampf about what he would do with the Jews. That was published in 1924, if I am not mistaken, and sold many millions of copies in German. You think no one read Mein Kampf before the war? Then people like you want to claim no one had any idea at all that there were millions of slaves and hundreds of concentration camps thoughout Germany. Give me a break.
Comment by Tristan — February 28, 2008 @ 6:43 pm |
Die Deutschen sind sich sehr wohl bewusst, was vor 60-70 Jahren in Deutschland geschah. Da bedarf es nicht eines Missionars wie du es versuchst zu sein.
Comment by Edmund Sackbauer — February 29, 2008 @ 7:03 am |
Edmund, when people like you protest, whenever someone talks about the Nazi times, it amounts to an attempt at a form of social censure. If it bothers you, that people talk about the Holocaust, it just shows that you have not really dealt with the past, as you claim. As Rammstein says in “Mutter”, you want to “remove the birthmark from your forehead”. You do not want anyone to remember it or remind you of it, while you revise history to blame everything on a few Nazis. That is what Rammstein is all about, trying to boost pride in the old chauvanistic and mystical occult German national feeling, while mocking those who want to remember what really happened. The great majority of Germans followed Hitler willingly, after he began to have success and they did not care much what happened to the Jews. Get used to it. It was the reality of that time.
Comment by Tristan — February 29, 2008 @ 11:40 am |
Hallo Tristan,
der Kürze wegen versuche ich es jetzt einmal auf deutsch. Ich war etwas enttäuscht über die die Reaktion auf meinen Beitrag und dachte, wenn meine Überlegungen zum weiteren Thema nicht auf Interesse stoßen, muss ich auch niemand damit nerven.
Ich habe aber noch einmal hereingeschaut und fand, dass die Entwicklung des Dialog mit Eolfin und Edmund gerade die Befürchtung bestätigt, die ich in meinem Beitrag geäussert hatte. Ich weiß nicht, ob Du mich in dieser Sache als halbwegs brauchbaren Beobachter akzeptieren kannst, ich teile trotzdem meine persönliche Sichtweise mit. Ich habe bei beiden Teilnehmern keinen Versuch gesehen, die unbeschreiblichen Verbrechen, die an den Juden und an anderen Völkern und Gruppen begangen wurden, zu leugnen oder kleinzureden. Auch den Versuch, dies nur einer kleinen Gruppe von Nazi – Funktionären anzulasten, habe ich nicht gesehen. Ich weiß nicht, ob Du über diese Teilnehmer mehr weißt als ich, was Dein Urteil rechtfertigen könnte, meine Einschätzung beruht auf dem, was im blog veröffentlicht ist. Der Umgang mit diesem Thema ist für Deutsche schwierig, aber stell dir einfach einmal vor, Du würdest immer wieder für etwas in der Amerikanischen Geschichte verantwortlich gemacht, womit Du selber nicht einverstanden bist. Sklaverei, was den Indianern geschah, woran man auch sonst denken könnte, wähl einfach das aus, was Du in der Amerikanischen Geschichte als beschämenstes Ereignis empfindest. Es wird nicht an die Sonderstellung der Nazi-Verbrechen heranreichen, aber diese Vorstellung kann eine Ahnung geben, wie es jemand geht, der diese Verbrechen zutiefst verabscheut, die deutsche Verantwortung anerkennt, aber in diversen Punkte mit Deiner Sichtweise nicht übereinstimmt und deshalb zu den Holocaust-Leugner gezählt wird oder immerhin in deren Nähe gerückt wird.
Sicher gibt es recht fragwürdige Umgehensweise mit diesem Thema, es gibt aber gerade wegen der Besonderheit dieses Kapitels in der deutschen Geschichte auch kein brauchbares Vorbild. Aus Amerikanischer Sicht pauschal die Mehrheit der Deutschen, die damals bewußt und verständig die Situation erlebt haben, als willige Komplizen Hitlers zu sehen, halte ich für problematisch. Ich habe nie die Erfahrung machen müssen, wie es ist, in einem Regime zu leben, dass sich in unvergleichlicher Weise selbst die Lizenz zum Töten ausgestellt hat und sehr erfolgreich den Eindruck erweckt, dass alle Leute um dich herum aus tiefster Überzeugung dahinter stehen. Für Leute wie mich (Geburtsjahr 1955) führte die Auseinandersetzung mit der Nazi-Zeit noch zu einer Gegenidentifizierung mit der Generation unserer Eltern, was wahrscheinlich oft ungerecht war. Meine Mutter hat mir einmal erzählt, dass ihr Vater eines Tages kreideweiss und in einer für ihn völlig ungewöhnlichen Weise geängstigt nach Hause kam. Ich erinnere mich, dass mein Großvater keineswegs leicht zu erschrecken war. Was war geschen? Man hatte beim Bier Witze über die Nazi-Größen gemacht, gedacht man sei unter sich. Einer der Beteiligten, der sich zurückgehalten hatte, sagte dann:” Wenn ich jetzt gemein wäre…” Die Drohung mit Denunziation hatte damals eine andere Qualität, als wir uns heute vorstellen können. Dies sollte man nicht vergessen, wenn man die Haltung der Mehrheit der Deutschen in der damaligen Zeit einschätzt. Es würde meiner patriotischen Haltung auch gut tun, wenn es noch mehr aktiven Widerstand gegen Hitler und seine Gefolgschaft in Deutschland gegeben hätte, ich bin aber vorsichtiger geworden, wenn es darum geht, die Menschen zu beurteilen, die damals einfach damit beschäftigt waren, selbst zu überleben. Es gab durchaus Widerstand, bis heute gibt es aber eine strenge Arbeitsteilung in den politischen Lagern, welche Teile dieses Widerstands man würdigend zur Kenntnis nimmt.
Ich befürchte, dass Du mit bestimmten Extrempositionen oft gerade die Menschen verprellst, mit denen Du ins Gespräch kommen willst, so waren meine diesbezüglichen Bemerkungen gemeint, und nicht als Rechtsberatung.
Ein Punkt, der vielleicht noch erwähnt werden sollte, ist, dass der Umgang mit der Nazi -Vergangenheit in der ehemaligen DDR deutlich anders war als in der BRD. In der DDR hatte man sich auf eine spezielle Weise von der Geschichte distanziert. Man sah sich dort als das bessere Deutschland, dass nun von den Kräften aufgebaut wurde, die imer schon in maximaler Distanz zu Hitler gestanden hatten und eben auch unter den Nazis gelitten hatten. Das auf diesem Weg und unter Stalins Regie eine neue Diktatur entstanden ist, ist ein weiteres Kapitel. Alle Mitglieder von Rammstein sind in der DDR aufgewachsen, was vielleicht ein Baustein zu der Haltung ist, die sie zu dem Thema einnehmen (Wie kann man uns bloss in die Nähe von Nazis rücken?). Dies differenziert zu betrachten würde aber wieder zu einem unverhältnismäßig langen Beitrag führen, ich will mich nicht ungefragt hier ausbreiten. Ich hoffe nur, etwas dazu beitragen zu können, dass eine offene Diskussion stattfindet und nicht durch Konfrontationen an der falschen Stelle scheitert.
Joachim (Eumel)
Comment by Joachim Gundelach — March 9, 2008 @ 1:42 pm |
Joachim, The last few times that I was in Germany I brought back armloads of books about WWII, the Holocaust and the German psychology about the war. An interesting one that I picked up at Sachsenhausen is entitled “Opa war kein Nazi”. You can order it from the German Amazon.
It’s about how the German memory of the war changes over the Generations. The type of anecdote that you are giving about your “Opa” is supposed to be quite unreliable. One person interviewed said that his Grandfather joined the Gestapo “to help the Jews from the inside.”
When you say things that would lead people to believe that many Germans objected to what the Nazis were doing, but were too afraid to do anything about it, that in itsself is a kind of denial of what happened. The Jews were ostracized, boycotted and suffered public humiliation years before the extermination began. They were shipped out of the country and their possessions sold off to the public and their houses “aryanized”. Before the extermination camps began operating the Einsaztgruppen and Wehrmacht killed a couple of million Jews and others, either by shooting or depriving them of food and supplies so that they starved. Hilter bragged in public speeches that were heard thoughout Germany that he would destroy the Jewish race in Europe. Propaganda films in German theaters compared Jews with a plague of rats. Soldiers from the front came home and talked about the massacres on the front.
What you are saying is just bullshit, sorry. The German public may not have known exactly what was happening to the Jews and others, but if your Grandfather feared for his life for making a joke about the Nazi leadership, what do you think he believed was happening to all those Jews that were being shipped off to the east, who were supposed to be the arch enemies of Germany and not just “jokers”. One person could not have changed much, but Hitler did fear mass public opinion. The problem is that the masses supported what he did for most of the time he was in power. No one is blaming today’s German’s for anything except that they often seem to have a poor memory of what things were like back then. I am not even saying that the Germans then were primarily to blame, but just that they were imperfect humans, who let themselves be taken over by these occult ideas of the Nazis. Germany was a country that was taken over not by ordinary nationalists but by a cult. Whether you liked their policies or not, Bismark, Frederick the Great and even Stauffenberg were nationalists. Hitler was not so much a nationalist as the leader of a gnostic totalitarian cult, who would rather have seen the country completely destroyed than for his occult idea of himself as leader of a super race to fail. No true nationalist will willingly destroy their country. Hitler told Speer in the last days to destroy Germany. If you can’t even admit that they mobilized the German people to support the Nazi cause, I don’t think you can understand what really happened or how to recognize such a hysterical mass delusion and to prevent it from happening again. It’s not enough to say, “Oh, we Germans accept the blame, now let’s not ever talk about it again.”
Slavery and Indian massacres do not seem to rise to the same level as the Holocaust, but it does not bother me to talk about it in the right forum, which this is not. However, even though only about 10% of the people owned slaves in the South, most of the people in the South and also many in the North supported slavery. The same was true with Indians. Where the worst atrocities occurred most of the people hated Indians. At one time a reward was paid in California for every Indian killed. The California state government was able to do that because most of the people in California at that time despised Indians. That is not really in question. It is difficult to exterminate or enslave a part of a population unless most of the rest of the population is willing to go along with it. That does not mean that the entire population or their decendents were inherently evil. It just a characteristic of mankind that it is not too difficult to create a scapegoat and to incite a population to go along with such atrocities.
This is an interesting subject, but I do not want to get so far off the main theme, and that is Rammstein. Someone connected to Rammstein knows Nazi history and symbolism quite well. They intentionally put in references to Nazism. There is not doubt at all about it when they use Nazi propaganda footage, or goose step on stage wearing SS-like uniforms, or have the bridge of a WWII-era German battleship on stage. Some of the rest you can argue about, but there is too much of it to be an accident.
Comment by Tristan — March 9, 2008 @ 4:22 pm |
Tristan,
ich schlage vor, wir bleiben aus praktischen Gründen dabei, dass jeder seine Muttersprache nutzt.
Ich habe vielleicht den Vorteil, dass ich vergleichsweise wenig empfindlich gegenüber Aussagen bin, die man als kränkend empfinden könnte. Ich denke auch, dass Du mit manchen Deiner Aussagen deinem Anliegen eher schadest, da viele
Kurz zum “bullshit”: Richtig ist, dass die Nazis einen Widerstand größerer Gruppen fürchteten und in einzelnen Fällen Aktionen zurückgestellt haben, wenn solcher zu erwarten war. Dies betrifft sowohl spontane Erhebungen, die aber immer in engen Grenzen blieben, als auch z.B. den Protest des katholischen Bischofs von Münster, Kardinal von Galen, gegen die sogenannte “Euthanasie”, die Tötungsaktion gegen psychisch Kranke und Behinderte. Tatsächlich blieb es bei isoliertem und vereinzeltem Widerstand, wofür verschiedenen Gründe entscheidend waren. Du hast selbst Roland Freisler als Exponenten einer Justiz erwähnt, die alle Vorstellungen von Recht der totalitären Staatsidee geopfert hatte. Daneben gab es willkürliche Systeme, die sich nicht einmal den Anschein von Recht geben mussten. Als Diese Maschinerie erst einmal aufgebaut war und lief, brauchte es schon sehr viel Mut und Opferbereitschaft, sich diesem System entgegenzustellen. Die Chance, darin buchstäblich spurlos zu verschwinden war größer als die, dabei irgend etwas auszurichten.
Richtig ist, dass Hitler einen sehr großen Teil der deutschen Bevölkerung auf seine Seite ziehen konnte. Viele sind mit seinen angekündigten Pläne so umgeggangen, wie man heute mit der drohenden Klimakatastrophe umgeht- “Es wird schon nicht so schlimm werden” oder “Was wir uns nicht vorstellen können, wird schon nicht geschehen”. Die Fakten zu wissen, aber nicht die entsprechenden Schlussfolgerungen zu ziehen, ist eine Art, wie Menschen sich vor unerträglichen Wahrheiten “schützen”.
Ich denke nicht, dass diese Punkte geeignet sind, Schuld zu tilgen. Ich denke aber dass, sie zu einer realistischen Beurteilung der damaligen Situation gehören. Es gab eine breite Skala von begeistertem Mitmachen, konformistischem Mitlaufen, Gleichgültigkeit, Wegschauen, Distanzierung, Rückzug, “innerer Emigration” bis hin zu passivem und aktivem Widerstand, wobei die Häufigkeitsverteilung der einzelnen Formen nicht erfreulich war.
Es ist auch leider zweierlei, ob man etwas weiss und ob man schon begreift, was es tatsächlich bedeutet.
Ich erinnere mich, zeitweise ähnlich argumentiert zu haben, wie Du es tust. Einer unserer früheren Regierungschefs, Helmut Kohl, hat einmal von der “Gnade der späten Geburt” gesprochen, wofür man ihn getadelt hat. Nun, die späte Geburt bedeutet, nicht dieser Probe unterzogen worden zu sein, ein Grund, etwas vorsichtiger mit dem Urteil über die zu sein, die in verschiedenen Graden an ihr gescheitert sind.
Ich bin allerdings nicht der Meinung, dass eine solche Differenzierung irgendetwas leugnet, sie bedeutet aber, wichtige Aspekte einzubeziehen. In einem Gerichtsverfahren wird das Urteil nicht von der Anklageschrift abgeschrieben, sondern es ergeht nach der Verhandlung, die eine Chance zur Verteidigung bieten muss.
Dass die Begenung mit den unvergleichlichen Greueltaten des Hitler-Regimes zu einer pointierten und auch emotionalen Stellungnahme und Parteinahme für die Opfer führt, ist mir nicht fremd, ich kann mir leicht eine Situation vorstellen, in der ich eher deine Position einnehmen würde. Vielleicht ist es bei mir auch berufsbedingt, dass mir die tatsächliche Wirkung, die ich langfristig bei anderen Menschen erreichen kann, wichtiger ist, als das Vertreten einer zugespitzten Position im Moment, auch wenn ich diese für richtig halte. Wenn das Gespräch abbricht, erreiche ich wahrscheinlich gar nichts.
Was Rammstein angeht, werden wir uns wohl nicht einigen, muß ja auch nicht sein. Ich sehe dort leichtfertigen Umgang mit Anspielungen an das dritte Reich, aber das ist nicht gleich Leugnung oder Verharmlosung der Nazi-Verbrechen oder gar Nazi-Propaganda. Ich halte diesen Unterschied für wichtig. Dazu habe ich schon in meinem ersten Beitrag einige Gedanken geäussert. Ich habe dabei über Vorgänge gesprochen, die so geschehen, ob ich sie toleriere oder nicht. Ich sehe aber die Chance, durch eine offene Diskussion die Dinge letztlich zum Guten zu wenden.
Mein Standpunkt kann hier zum Ende des Gespräch zwischen uns führen, das ist mir klar, was nicht heissen soll, dass ich dem Gespräch abgeneigt bin. Es gibt vielleicht auch andere Themen als eine Band, die wir unterschiedlich beurteilen, wohl nicht nur hinsichtlich des hier diskutierten Themas.
Joachim
p.s. ich weiss nicht ob ich dir mit diesen Buchempfehlunen etwas Neues bieten kann:
Rolf Hochhuth – Eine Liebe in Deutschland
– Die Berliner Antigone
müsste sich mit diesen Daten finden lassen.
Comment by Joachim Gundelach — March 10, 2008 @ 1:13 pm |
Joachim, the bottom line is that most Germans supported Hitler during the war. After the war it was very popular for families to pretend as if they never supported Hitler at all and it was just the few evil Nazis that were responsible for forcing all the others to go along with it. However, the Nazi way of thinking is not gone it has just gone somewhat underground.
It seems pretty silly to compare the “Nazi-Rausch” that Germany experienced to opposition to the Global warming hysteria. Before WWII Hitler made up a fairy tale about Germans being massacred in Eastern Europe, as a rationale to do what he wanted there. That is, get control of eastern Europe.
Today, others have made up a fairly tale about global warming destroying the Earth so that they can try to achieve certain political goals. That is get control of the energy resources of the World. It is still a kind Nazism, although people don’t call it that any more. It is a Nazi way of thinking. That is, government must control everything, because the wasteful, glutinous Americans are destroying the World.
The Germans should finally face the fact that they supported Hitler in his plans of conquest and destruction of the Jews and then maybe they can finally come to terms with this Nazi way of thinking that persists, among many, even today in Germany.
Comment by Tristan — March 12, 2008 @ 5:06 am |
Tristan,
dass Hitler genügend Unterstützung gefunden hat, um seine Pläne zu verwirklichen, ist historisch klar und wurde nicht bestritten. Ich plädiere allerdings dafür, anzuerkennen, dass es in Deutschland damals eine breite Skala von Einstellungen gegeben hat, leider war der Widerstand zu schwach, um etwas auszurichten, was wesentlich über symbolische Aktionen hinausgegangen wäre. Es ist aber doch verständlich, dass Du gelegentlich auf Ablehnung stößt, wenn Du Gesprächspartnern, die Du nur von ihren Beiträgen hier kennst (ich gehe einmal davon aus, dass dies so ist), als Ignoranten gegenüber der Geschichte oder gar als Holocaust-Leugner bezeichnest, bloß weil sie einzelnen deiner Thesen widersprechen. Ich kenne die Betreffenden auch nicht besser, habe in ihren Beiträgen aber nichts gefunden, was dies nahelegen könnte. Ich kann Dir versichern, dass es durchaus Deutsche gibt, die sich der Geschichte sehr wohl bewußt sind und eine verantwortungsvolle Haltung dazu einnehmen und sich informieren. Jemanden, den man nicht weiter kennt, wegen einer Differenz in einer speziellen Frage gleich in das Lager von Geschichtsleugnern und potentiellen Nazisympathisanten zu stecken, riskiert einfach, vielen Menschen Unrecht zu tun. Selbst wenn der Anteil der Ignoranten und Leugner hier so groß wäre, wie Du es voraussetzt, weißt nach einem kurzen Beitrag nicht sicher, ob Du es mit einem solchen zu tun hast. Machst Du bedingungslose Zustimmung zu Deinen Ansichten zum Kriterium einer angemessenen Haltung? Dann würdest Du Dich bald von Beifallklatschern umgeben finden, aber niemand mehr erreichen, den Du erreichen willst.
Ich wundere mich manchmal über Dein geringes Interesse, abweichende Standpunkte erst einmal zu verstehen, bevor es ans urteilen geht. Auch Dein Umgang mit Rammstein konzentriert sich auf Punkte, die irgendwie zu Deinen Thesen passen. Aspekte, die nicht dazu passen, werden nicht einmal mehr zur Kenntnis genommen. Eine solche Methode führt zwangsläufig zu einer hohen Zahl von irrtümlichen Bestätigungen der eigenen Thesen, wenn nicht irgendein Korrektiv zugelassen wird und ist ohne ein solches nicht zur Wahrheitsfindung geeignet.
Ich habe die Ignoranz gegenüber Hitlers Plänen (also einer damals drohenden Gefahr) mit der Ignoranz gegenüber einer heutigen drohenden Gefahr verglichen. Ich bin schon der Ansicht, dass es inzwischen recht ernste und ernstzunehmende wissenschaftliche Befunde gibt, die uns alle zum Handeln drängen, ob wir nun Amerikaner, Chinesen oder Deutsche oder was auch immer sind. Es wird allerdings einige Völker früher und härter treffen, was man als verantwortlicher Mensch auch nicht ignorieren sollte. Ich sehe nicht, dass sich dieses Thema überhaupt besonders gut für eine Verschwörung eignet. Dass die Ressourcen dieses kleinen Planeten über kurz oder lang endlich sind, ist keine abenteuerliche Behauptung. Dass aus der Anerkennung dieser Gefahr eine durchgehende staatliche Reglementierung oder gar eine Nazi-ähnliche Haltung erwächst, kann ich überhaupt nicht nachvollziehen. Wenn wir alle uns alle zu einem verantwortungsvollen Umgang mit den natürlichen Ressourcen entschließen, besteht wenig Anlaß für Reglementierung. Eventuell wird man Regelungen gegen Wettbewerbsverzerrungen durch Raubbau brauchen, darin kann ich aber kein großes Übel sehen. Schwieriger ist sicher die Situation der Entwicklungs- und Schwellenländer, die High-Tech Länder müssen eigentlich nur auf Raubbau und Übertreibungen verzichten.
Ich nehme einmal an, dass nun ziemlich klar ist (was vorher nur eine Ahnung war), dass wir ziemlich verschiedenen Grundorientierungen angehören, was weit über die Bewertung einer international vergleichsweise erfolgreichen deutschen Band (ich erinnere mich noch an den spöttischen Begriff “Kraut-Rock) einerseits und die Einschätzung der Haltung der Deutschen zu ihrer Geschichte hinausgeht. Ich bekenne mich zu einer Haltung, die zunächst einmal genau hinschaut, andere Sichtweisen prüft und auch die Frage stellt, ob zum Beispiel bestimmte Mittel überhaupt geeignet sind, den angestrebten Zweck zu erreichen. Ich meine nicht, dass ich in dieser Sache belehrend aufzutreten habe, ich denke, dass es überall auf der Welt Menschen gibt, die das ähnlich sehen, auch wenn man für diese Haltung nicht immer Anerkennung bekommt. Manchmal ist es notwendig, dabei auch Anfeindungen zu ertragen, nicht nur im “alten Europa”.
Ich denke allerdings, dass es gut ist, auch über solche Grenzen hinweg miteinander zu sprechen, es erfordert allerdings von beiden Seiten einige Anstrengung und die Bereitschaft, wenigstens probeweise den eigenen Standpunkt zu relativieren. Ich denke aber, dass es sich lohnt, auch einmal Gespräche “über den Zaun” zu führen.
In diesem Sinne
Joachim
Comment by Joachim Gundelach (Eumel) — March 12, 2008 @ 11:42 am |
Every country has their fairy tales. A German version is that they accept the blame for what happened in WWII, but hardly anyone thinks that their families had anything to do with it. They have the stories, like you gave, about how their grandparents were against Hitler. There were some such cases, but they were not at all the majority. If you look at all the news reels of the jubiliation over Hitler and the Nazis, some of which you see on my site, and it just does not make any sense. The German people were at that time massively on the side of the Nazis, not because of fear, but because they thought the Nazis would make Germany into a great empire, like the Roman Empire and reverse all the humiliation that they had felt from the previous few decades. The German people, in general, despised the Jews. They believed the idea that the Jews had caused the defeat in WWI and they did not care too much what happened to the Jews. They participated in the public humiliation of and discrimination against the Jews. They moved into the houses of the Jews and stole the abandoned possessions of the Jews. They knew something terrible was happening to the Jews that were being shipped off to the east and did not not care. I know very well that there are some Germans that know how it happened and admit that openly and they try to make sure that a reluctant German population understands what happened. I have bought several of the books of such people. Here you can read (in German) about what the German and other nations knew about the Holocaust and when they knew it:
In this book they explain that the extermination of the Jews became widely known not long after it started in 1941. Articles about it were even printed in newpapers. I salute those people that do this research for their efforts. But it seems that they are losing the battle to educate the German people and many Americans also seem to want to forget, if they ever really understood. The taboos that Germans have about about speaking about that time and the the false memories that families develop to explain the role of their ancestors are an impediment to understanding how such hysterical delusions can take over a country like Germany. Hitler was not a nationalist, in my opinion, or not just a nationalist. No nationalist wants to lead their country to destruction the way Hitler did. In the end he gave orders to Speer to destroy the country. He was the leader of a totalitarian cult — similar to Scientology — that was able to take over a country.
Because Germans do not understand what Nazism was, what happened and how it developed, they can make silly comparisons to Nazism that blame the Americans the way you just did with global warming. You “assume” there are “scientific discoveries” at prove blah, blah, blah. However, you can not explain these “discoveries”. I am a scientist and I am waiting anxiously to hear an explanation of these “discoveries” (not necessarily here, however, because we are already getting off topic). When confronted with the fact that you do not understand why you believe in the global warming hysteria, you change arguments and say the World is running out of resources. That is true, at least with respect to petroleum, but it is a different issue. Since the price of oil is 5 times what it was a few years ago, there is plenty of market pressure at the moment to conserve it, without needing a body of bureaucrats to dictate what we should do about it. Global Warming is being used by fraudulent politicians, like Al Gore, and they are creating a mass hysteria not unlike the Nazis caused to motivate the Germans against western capitalism and democracy. It seems to me that you can make such comparisons, because you never understood what Nazism was. In America the voters DO have power. We would not accept that the currency would be changed (like with the Euro) or a new constitution adopted without us being able to decide. Though it may seem a strange concept to you, Americans do not want to destroy the World any more than Germans do. However, you have to explain it to them and not just propagandize and create a meaningless delusional political hysteria. Maybe a political hysteria is good enough for some Germans to act on the orders from fanatical politicians and media, but not for us, sorry. We need to be able to understand why. We don’t want to do something just because some fanatics tell us we have to do it.
Comment by Tristan — March 14, 2008 @ 6:27 am |
I have a question for you:
How much do you think Rammstein’s doing this out of shock value and how much out of genuine appreciation for Nazism? You dissect the symbols very nicely (I caught a lot of the stuff in ‘Ich Will’ but not nearly as much as you) and I am 100% sure they are doing it on purpose. Still, far right groups tend to be conservative; these guys also sing about a guy who cooks and eats another guy’s penis, use flamethrowers on stage, and go naked while singing about gay sex. I mean, seems to me they’re trying to be outrageous, and hinting at being Nazis is a good way to do that in general and especially in Germany.
On the other hand, the neo-Nazis do love them dearly…could be they leave the ambiguity open intentionally to make money off both Nazis and non-Nazis. Sensible marketing strategy.
Comment by SFG — March 23, 2008 @ 6:39 pm |
SFG, many people have been brainwashed to believe that if someone is doing something for schock value then it’s okay and we shouldn’t notice. They also have pre-conceived stereotypical ideas about “Nazis” and that it is an “off” or “on” condition. That is, either you are 100% a Nazi or you are 100% not a Nazi. There are a group of people that reject normally accepted social conventions and that have a fascination with philosophies such as Nazism that embody much of their own philosophy. Rammstein is one of a group of bands that are misanthropic, that is they hate society and its conventions. That is why they can revel in Nazism, cannabalism and unnatural sex at the same time. People probably shouldn’t think of Adolf Hilter as being the only type of Nazi. There was variation even among Nazis of his time. Ernst Rohm for example represented a different, more degenerate type of Nazism. But it is probably not helpful to think of Rammstein as a Nazi band, due to the pre-conceived ideas that people have about Nazism. Think of them as having a fascination with Nazism as well as a fascination with just about anything that goes against social convention, such as satanism. Rammstein is just one of a fairly large group of bands that are oriented in this way. If you strip off the social conditioning of youth, you can replace it with your own conditioning. The next right wing movement will probably not be called “Nazism”, due to the intense knee-jerk rections that people have to Nazism, and it probably won’t have exactly the same agenda as Nazism had then.
Comment by Tristan — March 24, 2008 @ 5:51 am |
Ein Video von Ihnen trägt den Titel “Neo-Nazi Rammstein-Jugend”. Ich finde diesen Titel sehr diskriminierend, man könnte glauben, die Gruppe Rammstein sei eine Art “Führer” für diese Jugendlichen, wie es bei der Hitlerjugend war. Bitte vergessen sie nicht, dass Sie keine klaren Beweise dafür haben, dass Rammstein rechte Einstellungen haben oder sogar Nazis sind. (Nennen sich die Jugendlichen selbst “Rammstein-Jugend” ?)
Das die Jugendlich am Ende des Videos eine Deutschlandfahne in ihren Händen halten zeigt nur, wie unwissend und dumm diese sind (wobei man das wohl bei allen Nazis sagen kann), wo die deutsche Fahne doch für die deutsche Einheit, Freiheit und Demokratie steht. Ich möchte noch kritisieren, dass ich sehr oft das Gefühl habe, dass sie sehr einseitig argumentieren und viele Sachen falsch interpretieren.
Ich finde, dass sie hier eine interessante Seite gestartet haben, obwohl ich mir doch recht sicher bin, dass Rammstein nicht rechts ist und vielleicht provozieren möchte. Am Ende möchte ich sie noch mal für Ihr Deutsch loben und Ihnen danken, dass ich nicht auf Englisch schreiben muss 😉
Greetz Yannick
Comment by Yannick — April 3, 2008 @ 8:57 pm |
Yannick, ich habe diese Sachen eine Zeitlang untersucht und Ich finde, dass viele, viele Leute sich selbst gern ein Gehirnwaschen geben. Rammstein vergleicht sich und ihre Fans mit dem Führer und die Hitlerjungend. „Beweiß“ brauche ich nicht, weil Rammstein und viele andere *umstrürzlische* Gruppe ihre Vorführungen absichtlich zweideutig designiert haben. Nur konsequente Interpretierungen braucht man zu sehen was hier verläuft. Man sollte nicht aus Politisch Korrektheit sein Gehirn völlig außer Gang setzen. Mit Nazi Untertönen zu *provozieren* ist keine Entschuldigung dafür. Oder habt ihr Deutschen schon völlig vergessen, was die Nazis damals an Deutschland sowie auch an anderen Nationen und Völker angerichtet haben? Wenn das Antwort „ja“ ist dann ist das wirklich Schade, sorry. Um besser zu verstehen können Sie die Bücher in der Bibliographie rechts oben lesen. Wenn ihr nicht vergessen habt, hättet ihr ein Pflicht ihr Gehirn noch ab und zu im Gang zu setzen und nicht nur immer Quatsch reden. Übrigens, danke für das Kompliment.
Comment by Tristan — April 4, 2008 @ 6:19 am |
Jake, you shouldn’t expect to have your message posted, if you use bad language. I have posted some messages with bad language, but just as an example of how some of the Rammstein fans think. The reason why your teachers will let you watch Rammstein in school is that the schools seem to have largely given up trying to teach the students critical thinking and citizenship. You are not supposed to make a judgement about anything today. We are supposed to accept anything that faschoid, subversive bands like Rammstein want to do without criticism.
Comment by Tristan — April 18, 2008 @ 11:08 pm |
Yeah, sorry for the language, got off on a rant there. Yeah, I realize that today’s society is goin’ to **** (acceptable?), but you’re still yet to really make any REAL hard sense of anything you’re claiming. i.e. If John likes Mary, then Mary MUST be trying to attract John. The same goes for all those crazy noe-nazi freaks out there. It doesn’t add up. If you can aswer me that, then I’ll have a bit more respect for you and your “claims.”
Thanks again for replying to my first message, hope to hear from you again.
Comment by Jake — April 23, 2008 @ 2:07 pm |
Jake, Rammstein puts Nazi undertones in their music that are by design ambiguous. That is, you can’t say with absolute certainly if they are supposed to mean one thing or the other. However, there is no need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they put Nazi undertones in their music. They have no absolute right to sell albums. If it appears to people that they put Nazi undertones in their music, then those people have a right to stop buying their music, if they want. It is a matter of judgment for the individual. We don’t have to be naive and accept the subversive content in their music, even though we don’t like it, just because you can’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they they are doing what they do intentionally. It is enough for a person to look at what they do and form a reasonable opinion based on their own experience that this is what they are doing. This website is an editorial and what is being expressed here are opinions. People are allowed to form informed opinions and act on them even though they can not prove what they think beyond any doubt. Imagine if you couldn’t vote for a presidential candidate, unless you could prove that he/she is the best candidate without any doubt.
Comment by Tristan — April 23, 2008 @ 8:04 pm |
Hier mal ein Spot der NPD. Vielleicht passt das ja irgendwo rein, wie bei
“Are there really still Nazis in Germany?”
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=xmyMdQkpptU
Comment by Basti — April 24, 2008 @ 10:47 am |
Hi Tristan,
I was very surprised, when I did find your webside…and what is going on in here. First of all, thank you for opening this platform. I do not agree with your opinions, and can´t confirm your “so called” knowledge…but over all, this longlasting discussion shows, that many people still reduce germany, the german culture and the german people into a period of 12 years…from 1933 -1945. This were terrible years, whitch brouht neverseen terror over the world and caused the death ob millions of people. We will never forget, what happened in these days…what my people did to their jewish neighbors, to sinti an roma, to social-democrats and communists,to gays an russian POW´s…an to so many others. We will do everything that this will never happen again. And we have payed a bitter price. So far with the past.
But now to the present time.
I´m not a fan of rammstein. I´m 42 years old and i know the place and the “event” the band founded their name. We can discuss about sensitivity..but if they don´t have it…we are a free country…and we are happy about.
They used the goose step on Stage..so what about…the russian army still trains the goose step….and you will not call them nazi´s..or do you?
The goose step has nothing to do with nazis..it´s a special kind of presentation march. Questions?
But some people see the devil behind each bush…and in former times, there were hidden satanistic messages on LP´s (this big black things which you cant put into a cd-player)…
But on the other side, I say thank you for being aware…because we cant be cautionous enough to stop growing brown soup of nationalizm and extrem elite-thinking.
Greetings from Augsburg, germany and please excuse my lousy english.
Comment by Peter — May 5, 2008 @ 3:22 pm |
Peter, That is such a lame argument that everytime someone criticizes a German, people say we are reducing Germany to only WWII. Rammstein fairly obviously puts Nazi/Fascist undertones in their performances. There are many bands that do this. Criticizing Rammstein is not the same as condemning all Germans, sorry. See my page on Marilyn Manson for example or see some of Slayer’s performances. Why do you think the Bundeswehr doesn’t goose step any more, if people don’t people associate goosestepping Germans Nazis. Maybe you can propose to Frau Doktor Merkel that the Bundeswehr start goose stepping again? I don’t think your would get a very positive response. Rammstein is not so stupid that they don’t know what kind of associations they are making. They also know that the Biedermanns and Spiessburgers of the World will make excuses for them.
Comment by Tristan — May 5, 2008 @ 7:10 pm |
To Tristan, the author of this over-reacting weblog:
is this how you react to SYMBOLS? let’s say for example, you see a mountain. but you don’t like it because it is “intimidating” you, then you would insist on dynamiting it? it’s just like when you loudmouth on this blog about Rammstein. You elaborate your prerogatives in a “scholarly-styled”(?) manner to justify your accusations, and then you exert all your energies and efforts to vilify/demonize a band with remarkable musicianship.
Come to think of it, many people react to symbols, but only a few (or sometimes none) react to reality. Does this nonsensical “documentation” of yours make you feel a better person? Well if it does make you feel good, you’re masturbating on your ego already. Feel like a hero when you react to such “symbols of hate”?
How about some REAL THING like Climate Change, Environmental Collapse, Ecocide and other real issues. I guess you don’t give a damn on these things. You sit there on your comfy swivel chair and writing long, long messages of how Rammstein contains “Nazi undertones”.
You seem to us like a modern leftist. As Theodore [The UNABOMBER] Kaczynski has said: “…The leftists tend to react violently on defamation of minorities.” and so it goes. You over-react and elaborate on some things that are best left ignored.
Don’t be offended. It doesn’t matter if you call us an “anti-Semite” or “pro-Nazi”. because we’re none of the above-mentioned. We’re here to tell you that this really makes no sense at all. But thanks anyway for allowing us to take a tour on your ramblings.
Comment by The Accused — May 24, 2008 @ 2:05 am |
Accused, methinks you are a group of people that like to criticize others, but can’t tolerate criticism yourselves. Rammstein could always do things to better distance themselves from these accusations, but they choose not to do that.
Mentioning the Unabomber, means that you are at least somewhat familiar with this misanthropic subculture. In any case, congratulations, you are the first person of hundreds to post a message that seems to know what this is all really about. If more people would read some of the books in the bibliography in the upper right margin, they would understand better, also. I hate to sell books for some of these people, however. It took over a year from the time I noticed the perverse allusions and displays of symbolism in the music/entertainment industry to find out that there is a relatively small, fairly coherent subculture of extremely misanthropic people, who reject current societal values, has a rather significant impact in the entertainment industry and promotes their beliefs through various entertainers/artists.
Comment by Tristan — May 24, 2008 @ 8:08 am |
okay for one thing how far are you reading into this. stop over reacting. how can rammstein be nazi’s. they grew up in the socialist east germany, where there were strict rules against nazism and fascism. they have repeatedly said that their song ‘links 2-3-4’ is about anti facism, with the lyrics ‘my heart beats on the left’. the album cover for herzeleid was just an innocent album cover, so what they had their shirts off. like they said it wouldn’t happen if they were spanish. also their lead guitarist married a jewish person. would he have done this, if they were nazis, as i believe they did not believe in having sexual or marital relations with jewish people. rammstein’s albums are meant to provoke people, and they have also made this known. so what they had a song called sonne ‘sun’, this is about over idulgence. it has nothing to do with the swastika. even if it did the swastika was used long before hitler and his crazy ideas took hold. it was used as a hindu symbol for love and peace. have you ever taken this into consideration. no because you are stuck on the idea that rammstein are nazis. just because a small minority of idiotic, pathetic so called fans believe that they are nazis and that the band is promoting them to spread the word doesn’t make it so. the band again has said repeatedly that they do not believe in nazism, have nothing to do with any cults but yet you still continue to believe that they are. do you really think that if they were a part of a nazi cult, that the strict stasi in east germany (who were a socialist organisation) would allow and regulate the band so that their music could be heard. i suggest that you do your research to a better quality and stop thinking that if you twist everything and keep believing that the band are nazi that it will be true.
Comment by ali — May 27, 2008 @ 4:57 am |
Ali, this type of message is usually deleted, because fans write without reading the site and repeat the same things over and over. The claim is here not that Rammstein are Nazis, but that they frequently use sometimes subtil Nazi/Faschist undertones in their music, which is not really in doubt, because they were cited by the ADL for using Nazi propaganda footage in one of their videos, “Stripped”. See the “Stripped” link in the website. The question is only how much they do it and where they do it. This is a technique which has been used by some bands for many years, especially in the Industrial, Goth, Metal areas. Laibach is a good example and they have had a large influence on Rammstein. Rammstein is famous for making their music ambiguous, that is it can have more than one interpretation. They are not so obvious that it would cause them to be banned, although Germany has come close to banning their music, as late as last Fall. As stated already, it is not being claimed that they are Nazis, but that they are from East Germany does not prove that they are not, because the german Neo-Nazis are actually strongest in East Germany, and escpecially in the area that Rammstein is from. If you like to listen to Rammstein, fine. What they do is not illegal, but their fans should be aware that they put this in their music, which Rammstein unfortunately has never been big enough to admit to their fans, because it would ruin the effect they are trying to achieve. Some of their fans, however, know it and like it, because it is faschoid. Rammstein tries, in this way, to create a cult-like following among their fans, which is why the fans are are so offended when you point it out to them. Rammstein has been involved with the Scientologist, Helnwein, as a collaborator on their art. Scientology has been declared a totalitarian cult in countries such as Germany and probably France, also. Not in the US, unfortunately because we don’t try so much to differentiate between cults and established religions.
Comment by Tristan — May 27, 2008 @ 6:08 am |
Rammstein may seem much like nazis. I’m a Rammstein fan, and I admit this willingly. However, I choose not to believe that they are. The lead guitarist, Richard Kruspe, said that they wanted to make something that was uniquely German. What is more German than nazis? Now, don’t misunderstand me here. I’m not saying that they use nazi styled themes just because of this. True, they may be trying to attract nazi fans, Till may goose step, Flake may not like America very much and the both of them did a show of bondage onstage. So what? Richard married a jewish woman. Nazis are against homosexuality, no? Till and Flake are both male, and porforming during their song ‘Buck Dich’ was between them, no? Would this not make it homosexual? If they were nazis, would they not have dyed their hair blond? I’m not really sure, but I’ve heard they have a black manager. What nazi would allow a black person to decide what they did and where?
And as mentioned before, Links 2, 3, 4 was a song to show that they could be dark and army-like without being nazis about it. Sure, they put nazi undertones in their music as you have said in a lot of your answering comments. Yes, they do this. But that’s what makes Rammstein who they are. Nazi undertones make it uniquely German. I’m not saying that it’s a good thing, but that’s what happens. And also, you have said it is up to the individual to make a choice on whether they should listen to Rammstein or not, am I correct? I mean no offence, but what gives you the right to say that Rammstein puts nazi undertones in their music for the purposes of alluring nazis to make money, or to spread nazism? I respect your opinion of them, but I will not allow someone to say such things without giving my opinion as well.
~Ramok
Comment by Ramok — May 30, 2008 @ 1:07 am |
Ramok, it is stated clearly in the website that the point is not to prove whether they are Nazis or not. That is not something that is provable unless they admit it. That said, there are a lot of pre-conceived notions about what a “Nazi” is or is not. Also, just because you are not verified as being a Nazi, does not mean what you are doing is so “wunderbar”. Being homosexual, having black associates, or having relatives that are Jewish, do not prove that you do not have Nazi tendencies. Some of the original Nazis, such as Ernst Roehm were homosexual. One of the first Neo-Nazi leaders in Germany, Michael Kuehnen, was gay and died of aids. The israeli Neo-Nazis, in the website have jewish backgrounds. The Nazis allied themseleves with a non-white nation, Japan. Nazis can be flexible when it is in their interest to be so.
The purpose of the website is just to raise the awareness that there are Nazi undertones in Rammstein’s music and to try to get people to think about what is Nazi-like in it. If you are not thinking about it, it can influence you unconsciously. It’s not just Rammstein that does this, but also quite a few other Industrial, Goth and Metal bands. I believe some of them, like Laibach admitted it. Rammstein, unfortunately, does not. There are links to videos in the website of a well-known Nazi interviewing early Goth and Industrial musicians, Nikolas Schreck and Boyd Rice, in which they openly discuss using this type of music to promote values and beliefs favorable to Nazism. Seeing those videos should make people stop and think about what these bands are trying to do, even now twenty years later. There are also books (in my bibliography) that talk about this kind of entertainer and why they do it. Nazism/Fascism is based on a attitude that can be promoted without necessarily showing all the sterotypical signs that people expect Nazis to show. Some entertainers have discovered this and are expressing themselves that way, whether they are overt Nazis or not.
Most Germans will feel angry, sad and disappointed to see you write that nothing can be more German than Nazism. The Nazis exploited Germany and German history as a way to try to achieve their occult idea of a creating a masterrace, but the idea was not at all unique to Germany. Many people all over Europe and even in the US supported that idea at the time. What happened in Germany was a mass mania, where many people stopped believing for a while that every human has worth and deserves to be treated fairly and with respect. That can and does happen even today, not just in Germany. Hitler used the media to exploit existing prejudices and to brainwash the public.
Really that is what some of these bands are trying to do, use the media to promote certain attitudes among their fans that are faschoid, as Boyd Rice and Nikolas Schreck freely admit in their interviews. I just think people should know about it. If you know it and still want to listen to their music, I do not think it is a good idea, but am not that concerned and can’t stop you in any case. I don’t think that Rammstein should be banned, but that people should understand what they are doing. If some of their unstable fans freak out and kill people, because they are obsessed with Rammstein’s faschoid message, then I think the band at some point should probably be held legally responsible for that.
Comment by Tristan — May 30, 2008 @ 2:04 pm |
ist doch immer das selbe, sobald jemand erfolgreich ist, kommen die Neider unter den Steinen hervorgekrochen und werfen mit Dreck. Sicher sind die Texte von Rammstein frei interpretierbar, aber sind sie deshalb mit versteckten “Nazi-Parolen” durchsetzt, nur weil nicht für jeden Dummkopf die Texte explizit erklärbar sind? Sind wir immer noch im Mittelalter, dass alles was nicht auf Anhieb verstanden werden kann gleich als ketzerisches Hexenwerk verleumdet wird? Oder ist automatisch jeder der es wagt mit der deutschen Sprache in der Musik international Erfolg zu haben gleich ein Nazi?
Und an all die Antifa-Spinner aus meiner Heimat, kümmert Euch mal lieber um die religiös motivierten Faschisten anstatt Euch ständig auf Geisterjagd zu begeben, denn die stellen die realere Gefahr dar, oder ist Euch dieser Gegner zu unbequem? Oder ist Faschismus für Euch nicht gleich Faschismus?
Peace!
Ich bin raus.
Comment by Darryl Revok — June 2, 2008 @ 1:51 pm |
Hallo Daryl, wenn Rammstein uns provozieren will, — wofür sie doch ziemlich berühmt sind — weiß nicht warum Leute sich so darüber aufregen und jammern sollten, daß ich nach meiner Meinung andeute, wie sie uns provozieren wollen. Ich mache es nicht nur, weil sie auf Deutsch singen, Denn suchte ich damals, als ich Rammstein gemerkt habe, ausgerechnet Gruppen, die auf Deutsch singen. Oder denken Sie vielleicht, daß Amerikaner wie ich Deutsch lernen, nicht weil sie es genießen Deutsch zu hören und zu üben, aber nur weil sie es nicht überstehen können, Deutsch zu hören? Hier schiene es mir eine kleine Zwickmühle zu geben, oder? Grönemeyer hat allerdings keine Probleme mit solche Vorwürfen. Rammstein will ein Skandal mit ihre Nazi-Ästhetik provozieren, damit sie Publizität kriegen können; damit sie uns auch zeigen können, wo der Hammer hängt und daß sie alles ganz ungestraft machen können, ohne Rucksicht darauf nehmen zu müssen was andere Leuten denken mögen. Sie wollen auch etwas Kohle auf den Leichen der Opfern des Holocausts machen, faschistische Tendenzen unter die Jugendlichen fördern und eine häßlichen Stereotyp der Deutschen in Ausland verkaufen. Wenn es gefällt euch nicht, was ich hier mache, dann geht dahin, wo der Pfeffer wächst. Liebe Grüße aus Amerika.
Comment by Tristan — June 2, 2008 @ 5:01 pm |
Darryl, du dürfest davon entnehmen, das du mich langweilst. Redensfreiheit heißt daß die Regierung, dein Quatsch nicht dämmen darf. Aber bin nicht die Regierung und diese Webseite ist privat administriert. Also bin daher nicht verpflichtet, alle von dem sehr oft wiederholten Quatsch der faschoiden Rammstein-Jugend zu erlauben. Wenn ich das mache, würdet ihr alles übertonen. Um ein Antwort zu verdienen, brauchst du mir etwas Interessantes zu schreiben. Gruß von einem Amerikaner, der gerade dem Herbert Grönemeyer zuhört, einer richtiger, anständiger deutscher Musiker, der allerdings auf Deutsch singt und zwar nie seine Fans mit einer überheblichen Nazi-Ästhetik verarscht … und eine gute Nacht noch, min guter Jung.
Comment by Tristan — June 3, 2008 @ 3:01 pm |
if they’re so confident praising hitler, why cover their faces?
Comment by margerie — June 5, 2008 @ 5:10 am |
The media in Israel did that, I believe. There may be a law that you can’t identify underaged people that have been accused of a crime, or something along those lines.
Comment by Tristan — June 5, 2008 @ 8:44 am |
Vielleicht ist es für dich interressant das die NPD jetzt in allen Kreisverbänden in Sachsen vertreten ist und im Durchschnitt 5.5% bekam.
Comment by Basti — June 11, 2008 @ 11:29 am |
Das ist nicht ganz so überraschend, so lang es nicht wächst. Schade, aber es wird immer ein paar Prozent von Spinner geben, die Nazi wählen würden, auch hier. Die Nazis oder KKK kandidieren hier nicht oft, weil es keine Chance in unseren System gibt, für sie in Kongreß vertretet zu werden. Bei 5% bekommen sie keine Kongreßmänner. Aber wenn wir ein Parlament-System wie euriges hätten, dann werden wir auch solche Rand-Gruppe in Kongreß haben. Vielleicht sollte sie in Deutschland verbannt werden.
Comment by Tristan — June 12, 2008 @ 9:49 pm |
Nur, wäre das noch Demokratie?
Demokratie heißt für mich das keine Parteien verboten werden.
Demokratie heißt dass das Volk entscheidet und wenn sie die NPD wählen dann ist das ihr Recht und ihr Entscheidung.
Ich weiß aber auch nicht ob dir klar ist das es nicht nur die NPD gibt.
Es gibt noch die DVU und die Republikaner, die nicht vergleichbar mit den Republikanern in den USA sind.
Es gibt noch sehr viele Nazi Gruppen und Freikorps, die (noch!!) nicht die NPD wählen.
Wenn das passiert würde die NPD im Bundestag sitzen.
Es ist schade was passiert.
Ich bin Anhänger der SPD und patriotisch, kann also nichts mit der NPD anfangen.
Ich habe Wahlkampfveranstaltungen der NPD gesehen und die sprechen den Arbeitslosen und mittellosen Menschen aus der Sehle.
Die sind die einzige Partei die in den Wahlkämpfen auf die Menschen eingehen.
Doch das was sie wollen wird die Situation Deutschlands nicht verbessern, sondern sie würden Deutschland isolieren und in den (vielleicht entgültigen) Abgrund führen, das muss den Menschen klar werden.
Es sollte sich aber sonst auch was ändern.
Es kann nicht sein das ich von Kindheit an gesagt bekomme wie schlecht wir Deutschen sind und was Verbrechen unser Volk begangen hat.
Die NPD ist die einzige Partei die sagt “wir sind stolz Deutsche zu sein”.
Bei euch in den USA ist das einfacher, da kann das jeder sagen.
Gruß Bastian
Comment by Basti — June 14, 2008 @ 6:25 am |
Hallo Bastian, Leute reden oft als ob Demokratie wäre, wie Schwanger zu sein, man hat es oder man hat es nicht. Und vielleicht ist das so in Theorie und ihr Deutschen neigen oft dazu, Theoretiker und Idealisten zu sein, wenn ich Stereotypen benutzen dürfe. Aber wir wohnen nicht in Demokratien pur aber in demokratischen Republiken. Das heißt, dass die Burger nicht alles Gleich entscheiden können. Wir haben Verfassungen, die gegen solche mögliche vorübergehende Entgleisungen der Bevölkerung verteidigen sollten. Eine einzige irrgeführte Generation hat doch keinen Recht in einer demokratischen Republik, die Republik abzuschaffen und das fördern die NPD. In den US verbieten wir Parteien nicht, aber es ist viel schwieriger für Kandidaten der Randgruppen hier in den US, gewählt zu werden. Verfassungswidrige Gruppe dürfen hier aber in gewissen Fällen nicht Beamten werden. Das gesagt aber, ist Verbot vielleicht eine bißchen extreme und sowieso oftmals schwierig durchzuführen. Vielleicht wäre es besser die 5% Grenze zu erhöhen, damit es ein bißchen schwieriger ist, für extremistische Parteien gewählt zu werden. Wenn es eine Gefahr gibt, muß man sie praktisch erledigen und nicht an Idealen halten, bis es zu spät ist. Lincoln sagte auf einmal, als die Hauptstadt eingekreist und schwer bedroht war, die Verfassung ist kein Suizidpakt. So ist das mit demokratische Idealen.
Ich kenne die DVU, die Republikaner, und die Kameradschaften. Dazu sollte man aber einrechnen, dass auch andere okkulte Bewegungen verweitern sich, die oftmals sehr ähnliche Ethiken und Philosophien und Verbindungen zu den Nazis haben, zum Beispiel gewisse Gruppen der sogenannten Satanisten und Heiden. Es gibt heutzutage dutzende von Rock-Bands, die diese Denkweisen unter Jugendlichen fördern.
Ich denke, es ist schlimm, dass die Politiker in Deutschland sich nicht mehr um den Sorgen der Bürgern kümmern. Wir haben zuweilen aber auch das gleiche Problem. Ich denke, in Deutschland ist es ein Problem, dass zu viele Politiker von die Eliten der Partei gewählt wird. Die Parteien nennen — wenn ich nicht irre — 50% der Kandidaten auf ihren Listen und auch den Kanzler. Die Kandidaten sollten mehr an die Bürger abhängig sein.
Was die Deutschen von sich halten ist wichtig. Um eine gesunde Gesellschaft zu haben, meine ich, es geht nicht darum ob die Deutschen stolz sein dürfen, Deutsch zu sein, sie MÜSSEN stolz darüber werden können und bereit sein zu verteidigen das was die Deutschen richtig gemacht haben. Das heißt aber nicht, dass sie chauvinistisch werden sollten, Kritik nicht hören, auf die Menschrechten von andere treten, oder schönreden und vergessen was in der Nazizeit geschehen war. Die Tatsache ist das — unter die richtigen Umstanden — können gute Leute massenweise verführt werden und Schreckliches machen oder tolerieren. Das ist eine Eigenschaft der Menschen und nicht nur der Deutschen. Man braucht verstehen zu können, wie das geschehen könnte. Ich denke, technische fortschritte machte es damals zum ersten mal möglich, eine ganze Bevölkerung einer Nation so zu Gehirnwäschen und zu kontrollieren. Es gibt immer noch eine Menge von Leute, die das auf großen Ausmaß wiederholen möchten und leider nicht nur in Deutschland. Die Massenmedien und Beobachtungstechnik ist nur besser heute als damals und die Gleiche faschistische und okkulte Ideen von Rassismus, Sozial Darwinismus und mythische Übermenschen sind immer noch mit uns, obwohl man nicht immer die gleichen Namen als damals benutzt oder das Gleiche aussieht. Mussolini soll auf einmal gesagt haben, dass man die 20. Jahrhundert erinnern würde, weil ein neue Religion geboren ist, die „Faschismus“ heißt. Man sollte die Idee im Kern ersticken, was immer sie genannt wird oder wie immer sie sich offenbart. Das ist mein Manifest. 😉 Ab Morgen fliege ich für eine Woche nach Eurolandia, also wird nicht viel in Kontakt sein.
Comment by Tristan — June 14, 2008 @ 10:47 am |
I Can see you wont agree with me whatever tho dude im not gonna waste my time here im gonna go out and enjoy rammstein for who they are rammsteing’s music for what it is see you around
Heroin:Bob
Comment by Heroin Bob — June 18, 2008 @ 12:57 pm |
did you ever see the similarity between the kiss logo and the waffen ss? take a look at it!
Comment by not telling — June 27, 2008 @ 5:00 am |
@Not Telling, yes it’s almost exactly the same and they were not allowed to sell albums in Germany with that SS-Nazi logo. If I am not mistaken they also used a swastika at one time on an album. The lead singer of Kiss, Gene Simmons, has some jewish family background, although I don’t believe he has ever been an observant Jew. For that reason many people dismiss his use of Nazi symbolism as a mere provocation. However, having a Jewish background does not at all guarantee that one is not a nut case and/or does not have a sick fascination with Nazism, whether the person shows all the stereotypical traits of Nazism or not, or whether or not the person would have been accepted by Hitler. There are literally dozens of Glam, Metal, Industrial and Goth bands that use a Nazi aesthetic and have used it for decades already. After a while it is not even provocative any more. The only reason that I can see that they continue do this for decades is to foster a kind of faschoid mentality among their fans, who often also wear this faschoid symbology on their clothes in public. Satanists are also admirers of Nazism and some of these musicians are Satanists. To a great extent these faschoid fashions have been commercialized and retailers sell it to people that don’t have the least idea of the origins of the symbology. If rock musicians really wanted to provoke people thay should start singing pro-christian religious music. That would literally create riots in the streets. However, the reason that they use Nazi/faschist symbolism is not merely to provoke. That is just their cover propaganda.
Comment by Tristan — June 27, 2008 @ 7:48 am |
After reading your interperatation of the “Ich will” video I felt compelled to watch it myself. If i misunderstand your points then forgive me and please explain where I am wrong. Regarding the “cog wheel halo”, I don’t know if I’m the only one to have noticed this, but that would actually be a clock behind Flake (The bomber). Earlier on in the video when Flake sits on the desk you can see the clock in the background. In addition, the howling wolf images are from the “Du Riechst so gut” video. That would be the part in that video where the band members in wolf form flee the ball. I have also never until now heard of the phrase “Ich will” be translated into “I will (it so)”. It is my belief that a more accurate translation is “I want” rather than will. However, you translate it as “I will (it so)”. That translation would serve your purpose (comparing “Ich Will” to “Triumph of the Will”) much better than the every-day (and more accurate) phrase “I want”. One final thing I would like to bring up not relating to the “Ich will” video, are you certain in the images of the “Old German Hard” being celebrated in New Jersey that the salute pictured is in fact a Hitler salute, and not the Bellamy salute? It is my understanding that the Bellamy salute was indeed very common in the 1930’s to salute the American flag. It has been very interesting reading your opinions and interperatations! – Dorich
Comment by Dorich — June 29, 2008 @ 2:51 am |
Dorich, Ich “will” is the first person form of the German word “wollen”. Most words in any language have more that one meaning. “Wollen” can mean “to want” or to “will”. You can just look it up in a German dictionary. The way Rammstein uses it, it is ambiguous and can be taken either way. “Will” was one of the central concepts of Nazism, as Riefenstahl pointed out by naming her propaganda film “Triumph des Willens” (Triumph of the Will). We can assume from context that she doesn’t mean “Triumph of the Wanting”. Rammstein loves to play with ambiuity in language to hint at Nazism. They do the same thing with the song “Du Hast” (You have) which sounds almost exactly the same as “Du hasst” (also spelled “Du Haßt”) which means “You Hate”. When the song “Du hast” starts it sounds like he is saying “You! … You hate! … You hate me”, but only when he finishes the sentence does it mean “You have (asked me)”. So Rammstein is hinting at “Will” and “Hate” two central concepts of Nazism in a ambiguous way, so that they can deny they mean anything by it.
This use of methaphor, illusions and satire has been a way for thousands of years that people (especially Europeans) express things that are not acceptable to say in public. You say or display one thing that can mean something else. To think that everything must be taken literally would be a sign of a very simple mind. For people to think that Rammstein is not capable of doing this is a severe underestimation of them. The key to whether it really is meaningful or not is whether it happens often and is consistent, which I believe is true.
The “wolf” is also a Nazi symbol. You can look up the meaning of the name “Adolf” and it is a contraction in German that means “noble wolf”. So, Hitler used it as a sort of totem animal that represented the fierce, agressive nature of Nazism. Hitler’s nickname was “Herr Wolf” and he named his command centers after the Wolf, such as the one on the Eastern front was called the Wolfsschanze (wolf’s lair). Again we should not be simple minded and consider the possibility that Rammstein is capable or showing one thing to hint at something else.
One of Hitler’s paramilitary organizations, the German Worker’s Front, used a Swastika inside a cogged wheel as their well-known logo. In the “Ich will” video, the “clock” forms a cog around Flake’s head. This is a kind of methaphor that can be taken to mean that Flake is a Nazi. In the “Links 234” video there is a frame that has what looks like a heart in a cogged wheel. This can be taken to mean that “My heart is Nazi.” I believe they got this from Laibach, who displays their iron cross logo in a cog. Laibach is famous for embedding totalitarian symbolism in their performances.
Some of my “interpretations” may well be a “stretch”, but there is far too much of this stuff in Rammstein’s works to think that it is accidental. Also, the use of Nazi symbolism is rampant in the Industrial, Goth, Metal and related musical genres. So, one must assume that Rammstein intends to hint at Nazism. They just make it ambiguous, metaphorical or allegorical in order to be able to maintain deniability.
With respect to the “Bellemy salutes”, they are wearing Nazi uniforms and displaying Swastikas. That photo is of a gathering in the 30’s of 4,000 members of the pro-Hitler “German Bund” in New Jersey for a Nazi parade in a park near Newark. Not that this makes much difference to the purpose of this website. There was also a pro-Nazi rally of the German Bund in the 30’s in Madison Sqaure Garden in New York City, which was attended by many thousands. The Nazis in the US and the KKK were also allied to a significant extent. The point is only that there were also a lot of fascists and Nazis in the US at that time and there still are a lot of faschoid types here.
Comment by Tristan — June 29, 2008 @ 11:32 am |
@LaughingMan – It is well known that many bands in Industrial, Metal and Goth genres make references to Nazism and it is a fact that Rammstein has done it, because they used well-known Nazi propaganda footage in the Stipped video. They are intentionally ambiguous with their references. This website is just presented to show where they may be making other references. It’s not about a scientific proof, but about interpretation and of the judgement of people that have some minimal common sense and do not let themselves be brainwashed by others that just want to make a gratuitous argument. 😉
Comment by Tristan — June 30, 2008 @ 3:58 pm |
Hi Tristan!
“It is well known that many bands in Industrial, Metal and Goth genres make references to Nazism and it is a fact that Rammstein has done it, because they used well-known Nazi propaganda footage in the Stipped video.”
Never doubted that – in some songs they use very obvious allusions to Nazism. So far we didn’t discuss why but that’s another question. But:
“They are intentionally ambiguous with their references.”
Yeah – that’s what artists do … I’m arguing about how far you take that referencing idea.
“It’s not about a scientific proof, but about interpretation and of the judgement of people that have some minimal common sense […]”
Common sense all right! The way you argue refers to the same kind of common sense that induces superstition, paranoia and conspiracy theories. You accept some theorie as true in advance and then you’re stretching every fact to proof your theorie. You can easily recognize that kind of arguing (which is showing nothing) if you look at how one sided the facts are viewed at and how far explanations are fetched.
Again: Yes in some songs/lyrics/… they clearly allude to Nazism (this alone is not to be condemned). In most of the cases however they don’t: sun, mother, wolves, skulls, … are just everyday-topics and only very strange and cleverly twisted interpretations allow connecting them to Nazism. This way more obvious reasoning is left aside, which invalidates the whole argument.
The same works for 23. Take a look at these theories: you just can put it anywhere you want! But finding facts that can be interpreted the way you wanna see them is worthless if you don’t take more reasonable explenations into account. Occams razor might be an interesting concept to you.
Comment by LaughingMan — June 30, 2008 @ 11:11 pm |
@LaughingMan, I feel like you are making some progress. At least now you can admit that there are Nazi allusions there. People get upset, I suppose, when this type of thing is pointed out to them about a favorite band, but it is really nothing new. There are literally dozens of bands that are putting Nazi, satanic and pagan references in their performances. The skull and sun can also be satanic and pagan symbols. If you are not aware of these things, then you allow yourself to be manipulated subconsciously by what they are doing and they appear to be actively trying to manipulate their fans, apparently to promote a faschoid and/or occult attitude among the younger population. They use these symbols, because they can have a powerful subconsious influence on people, and I do NOT believe that it is all just just about making money.
Thinking about something is not at all promoting superstition and paranoia. In fact, it is just the opposite. Thinking about this should not be “verboten”. And it is normal and rational to come up with a theory and try to see if the things fit that theory. What induces superstition and paranoia is NOT thinking about things and letting people that possibly have some wierd political/social agenda mold your mind subconciously. When you see people using a lot of fascist, satanic and pagan symbolism on the masses in a subconcious war, the simplest explanation as to why they do it probably is that they are persuing some sort of personal social agenda.
Keep thinking (and reading) about it. You will get there, if you have half a brain. These web pages are far from complete or perfect, but just give you an outline what all this is all about. If it doesn’t make any sense, just ignore it. It is just an opinion, but I think you are already realizing there is something to it, whether you would like to admit it or not. As they say, “the truth will set you free”. You do not get at the truth, though, by not thinking about forbidden topics. Repeating platitudes like “that is just what artists do” is just administering a self-brainwashing.
Comment by Tristan — July 1, 2008 @ 5:00 am |
Ein Teil aus deiner “Amerika”-Interpretation.
In the video, “Amerika”, Rammstein portrays themselves as spacemen, who are technologically advanced “Übermenschen” (Supermen) or “Herren des Universums”(Masters of the Universe). Exactly what some Germans such as the Rammstein group members, have always so dearly dreamed of being, if the verdammte, ignorant, uncultured Amis had not gotten in their way.
Das ist jawohl vollkommener Unsinn, es geht jawohl eindeutig um die USA als “Übermenschen”. Würde mich ja interessieren was du da rein interpretiert hättest, wenn sie ein paar Muslime gezeigt hätten. Wahrscheinlich das Rammstein den Terror und al qaida unterstützen.
Die USA sind hinsichtlich ihrer Toleranz gegen ihnen fremden Kulturen ja auch nicht gerade die Musterbeispiele.
Comment by -MCH_ — July 9, 2008 @ 8:27 am |
Vielleicht war es gemeint die Amerikaner als die Übermenschen zu zeigen. Rammstein schienen außergewöhnlich mit Herrenmenschen beschäftigt zu sein. Aber man bekommt leicht die Idee, daß Rammstein von den verdammten Amis nur sehr neidisch sind, weil sie doch mal die Herrenmenschen werden möchten. Vielleicht ist es unbewußt von Ihnen. Aber so sieht es aus. Wenn wir die Musterbeispiele nicht sind, wer denn? Offenbar sind die Ossies die hervorragende Musterbeispiele, oder, wenn sie nicht zu beschäftigt sind, Feuerbombe in die Wohnhäuser von Neger-Flüchtlinge zu werfen, als geschah auf einmal in Mecklenburg, wenn ich nicht irre, Stammlokal von einigen der Rammstein-Mitgliedern, als die Bevölkerung dort laut Beifall zuklatschten. Naja, die Ostdeutschen sind doch die Fachmänner, nicht wahr, wie man mit Minderheiten und mit anderen Rassen umgehen sollte? Man sieht das klar im ihren Video, “Amerika”, mit ihren Stereotypen darin von Negern und andere Rassen. LoL. Diese Typen sehnen sich nur an die guten ollen Zeiten der Nazis, mehr nichts. Heil Rammstein! Wunderbar! Weiter so, Jungs!
Comment by Tristan — July 9, 2008 @ 8:59 am |
Lustig wie du erst versuchst objektiv zu wirken, dann aber die Vorurteils-Kiste aufmachst und hier mit solchen Kommentaren um dich wirfst. Dumme Menschen gibts überall, manche hören Rammstein, manche nicht. Aber wenn du fragst, wer die Musterbeispiele sind, wen ihr es nicht seid, das sagt ja so einiges aus. Hast du eigentlich schon mal dran gedacht, dass das genau die Arroganz ist die Rammstein in ihren “Amerika” thematisiert? Du schreibst, sie wären neidisch. Wieso sollten sie den neidisch sein? Das klingt für mich so als wären die USA, ihr “american way of life”, deiner Meinung nach das Non-Plus-Ultra und alle anderen sollten sich diesem “Ideal” anpassen.
Genau das ist es, was Rammstein in dem Text und im Video zu “Amerika” kritisiert. Das ist wirklich nicht schwer zu verstehen wenn man sich das Video und den Text mal ohne die subjektive, ideologische Brille ansieht.
Comment by -MCH_ — July 9, 2008 @ 9:50 am |
@MCH, Ich bin nur neugierig herauszufinden, wer die Musterbeispiele sind, deiner Meinung nach? Offenbar ist das Rammstein, die nicht ausgerechnet für ihre Bescheidenheit gekannt sind. Bin nicht sicher, warum Rammstein neidisch auf Amerika sind. Das müßtest Du sie fragen. Weiß nur daß sie eine geile Erektion für Amis haben (wie allerdings nicht wenig Deutsche). Deswegen haben sie sich nach einen Stutzpunkt der Amerikaner genannt.
Comment by Tristan — July 9, 2008 @ 11:00 am |
Ich bitte dich das Wort “Ossie” nicht einfach so zu benutzen. Ich komme auch aus Mecklenburg (50km von Rostock entfernt) und kann dir sagen das die Mehrzahl der Menschen dort nicht so sind wie die NPD und die anderen Nazis. Ich habe Polnische, Russische und Afro-Deutsche Freunde. “Naja, die Ostdeutschen sind doch die Fachmänner, nicht wahr, wie man mit Minderheiten und mit anderen Rassen umgehen sollte?” Da musst du aber auch zwischen Pommern und Mecklenburg unterscheiden. In Pommern hat die NPD Wahlergebnisse von manchmal über 30 Prozent. In meinem Heimatort, in Mecklenburg, hatten sie 3,4 Prozent. Das ist ein gewaltiger Unterschied.
Ich bin überrascht das diese Ossie/Wessie denken schon nach Los Angeles gekommen ist. Eigentlich dachte ich das ihr Amerikaner uns als einheitlich seht?! Scheinbar habe ich mich getäuscht. Ich hoffe das nicht alle US-Bürger so denken wie du. Sry dass das so hart klingt aber bei diesem Thema bin ich automatisch ein wenig gereizt und aggressiv.
Comment by Basti — July 9, 2008 @ 1:13 pm |
Basti, zu Amerikanern ist 50 km keine große Strecke.
Wenn Betonköpfe aus Deutschland Amerika-Hasse fördern wollen, dann wäre es besser wenn anständige Deutschen die Amerika-Hasser kritisieren, anstatt zu versuchen alle Antworte auf ihrem Amerika-Haß zu unterbinden. Rammstein ist ein verwandte Gruppe and macht das Gleiche als Marilyn Manson, nur ein bißchen subtiler. Habe nicht behauptet dass alle aus Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Rassisten sind. Aber es gibt viele dort sowie auch viele Amerika-Hasser. Rammstein macht Anspielungen auf Nazismus und fördert Nazismus/Faschismus unter jugendlichen. Hier ist den Ausdruck „Ossie“ nicht verboten.
=====
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/skinhead-international/skins-germany.html
August 22-28, 1992 – Rostock, in eastern Germany, was the scene of several nights of Skinhead violence against a hostel housing 200 asylum seekers (mainly Gypsies) and 150 Vietnamese guest workers. The hostel was partially destroyed by the 150 attacking Skinheads, who were openly encouraged by at least 500 cheering residents. Authorities evacuated the asylum seekers on August 24, and the guest workers fled as the building was being torched. Once again, violence rewarded the Skinheads with victory; the Interior Minister of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, the state in which Rostock is located, was subsequently dismissed for having failed to immediately order the police to quell the riot.
Comment by Tristan — July 9, 2008 @ 3:32 pm |
Rammstein benennen sich aber nicht nur aufgrund des USAF Stützpunkt so, sondern wohl hauptsächlich wegen des Flugshow-Unglücks. Ich habe nicht gefragt warum Rammstein neidisch sein sollten, sondern warum man überhaupt auf die USA neidisch sein sollte? Was ist den soviel besser an deinem Land als an meinem das man hier neidisch sein sollte. Als Deutscher hat man vll ein anderes Verhältnis zu Patriotismus und Nationalstolz, aber ich würde nie sagen andere sind neidisch auf Deutschland, ich wüsste ja garnet warum man da neidisch sein sollte.
Comment by -MCH_ — July 10, 2008 @ 12:28 pm |
Der Flugzeug-Unglück verursachte damals eine kleine Flut der Antiamerikanismus in der Gegend. Genau deswegen wollte Rammstein sich nach dem Stutzpunkt, “Rammstein” nennen. Sie haben ein „m“ hinzugefügt weil sie wollte, einen Sinn schaffen, daß sie gegen etwas rammen. Leute sind neidisch auf die Amerikaner, weil wir unabhängig sind und brauchen ihr Erlaubnis nicht, um etwas zu tun oder nicht zu tun oder uns zu verteidigen. Ihr könnt uns nicht kontrollieren. Das stellt leider Neid her.
Die Problem damals mit den Deutschen war nicht nur, daß sie Patriotisch waren und Nationalstolz hatten. Das Urproblem war, daß die Deutschen ihre Werte und Ethik verloren hatten und deswegen war es leicht für ein totalitäre ganz ruchsichtlose Kult, wie die Nazis sie überzunehmen, weil sie an nichts glaubten. Am Ende wurde dieses Loch des Glaubens von die Nazis erfüllt und zwar in einer fanatischen Weise. Leider gibt es immer noch sehr wenige konkrete Werte unter den Deutschen, obwohl sie wollen sich oft als Heilige vorgeben. Sorgen macht es, daß es immer mehr solche Leute in den US gibt. Ihr habt uns leider mit euerer geistlichen Krankheit infiziert. Deutsche liebe es, die Amerikaner mit den Nazis zu vergleichen. Aber das heißt nur, daß ihr nicht versteht, was die Nazis waren und die Deutschen haben immer noch die gesellschaftliche Eigenschaften, die die Nazis herstellten. Wäre besser wenn die Deutschen ein bißchen gesunde Nationalstolz hätten. Dann brauchen sie vielleicht keine Sündebock.
Comment by Tristan — July 10, 2008 @ 3:39 pm |
….Ihr habt uns leider mit euerer geistlichen Krankheit infiziert…..
Dann ist doch alles klar Tristan. Dein Problem ist, du bist selber ein kranker Nationalist, es gibt keinen gesunden Nationalstolz. Zum Glück habt ihr ja viele gute Psychologen in Amerika. Hoffentlich nicht alles Patrioten !
Comment by reniar — July 11, 2008 @ 7:57 am |
@Reniar, Deutsche fühlen sich besser, wenn sie Nazismus mit Nationalismus gleichsetzen. Dann können sie alle ihre neusten Prügelknabe mit Nazis zusammenlegen. Aber es stimmt nicht, sorry. Mich “Nationalist” zu nennen stört nicht. Bismarck war Nationalist. Stauffenberg war Nationalist. Rommel war Nationalist. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson und Abraham Lincoln waren Nationalisten. Nationalisten können gut oder böse sein. Die Nazis, im allgemein, aber waren viel, viel schlimmer als die schlimmste Nationalisten und Hitler war bereit Deutschland für sein okkultes Glauben an eine arische Herrenrasse veropfern zu lassen und den Nero-Befehl zu geben, Deutschland zu zerstören, wenn es ihm nicht erfolgte. Unser Nationalismus hat damals uns von euere gnostische okkulte deutsche Nazi-Kult gerettet. Weil die Deutschen an nichts glaubten, deswegen war es für die Nazis leicht, sie gleichzuschalten. Die Deutschen glauben meistens immer noch an nichts, ausgenommen vielleicht an moralische Relativität und an solche pseudo-religiöse heidische erdeverehrende Glauben wie Globale Erwärmung. Leider ist die Mentalität in Deutschland nicht viel anders als in den 20en Jahren. Sie sind bereit Alles und alle Diktatoren anzunehmen, nur die bösen, bösen Amis nicht, nicht wahr?
Comment by Tristan — July 11, 2008 @ 11:06 am |
So, damit hast du dich gerade endgültig von jeglicher Vernunft freigesprochen.
“pseudo-religiöse heidische erdeverehrende Glauben wie Globale Erwärmung.”
Dass das von nem Amerikaner kommen muß is ja klar.
“gnostische okkulte deutsche Nazi-Kult.”
Wenn du dich so gut mit dem Dritten Reich auskennst, solltest du wissen, dass das nur ein sehr kleinen Teil der SS betroffen hat und nix mit dem deutschen Volk zutun hat. Vll. solltest du nicht so oft Indiana Jones gucken.
Mal davon abgesehen, dir is schon klar das deutsche Auswanderer in den USA immernoch die größte Gruppe stellen, viele von denen sind Ende 19. Jhd. ausgewandert oder vor den Weltkriegen. D.h. sie müßen ja unser deutsches Urproblem auch mit in die USA genommen haben.
P.S.: Mach bitte nen großen Pfeil an deinen letzten Beitrag, oder kopier ihn ganz oben auf deine Seite, damit andere sehen können wie man dich zu verstehen hat. Danke!
Comment by -MCH_ — July 12, 2008 @ 12:03 am |
Natürlich ist es ohne „Vernunft” und muß ja „von einem Amerikaner gekommen haben“, weil die pseudo-religiös Pflicht von jedem Deutscher ist, an Globale Wärmung herzlich, herzlich zu glauben auch trotzdem dass sie gar keine Ahnung haben, warum sie es glauben sollten, außer das ihr moderne Priester der Medien es bekanntgegeben haben. Das Dogma dürfe nicht in Frage kommen, nicht wahr? Das wäre doch häretisch.
Habe gelesen, dass die heutigen Deutschen oft versuchen, alle Schuld an einen kleinen Bruchteil der obersten Nazis zu begrenzen, obwohl damals die große Mehrheit der Deutschen waren von in der Mentalität der Nazi-Kult hingerissen und haben die Nazis herzlich unterstutzt. Danke für die Konfirmierung davon.
Es hat nichts mit Rasse oder Volk zu tun aber Gesellschaft. Vielleicht war ich mißverstanden. Ich schreibe Deutsch nicht so fein, da ich meistens selbst gelehrt bin. Ein besseres Wort ist wohl “Grund-Problem” statt “Urproblem”. Auf jeden Fall pendeln und verstärken diese Ideen zwischen die zwei Kontinente. Wir haben euch auch mal mit etwas infiziert. Z.B. die Idee der Eugenik war hauptsächlich in Amerika entwickelt und formalisiert.
Entwicklung der Eugenik
Habe schon gesagt dass wir das gleiche geistlich Krankheit haben, nur so weit ist es hier nicht so ausgeprägt, als in Deutschland/Europa. Wir haben unsere eigene Kulten, nur haben sie noch nicht die Mehrheit der Bevölkerung faszinieren und hinreißen können, vielleicht weil wir mehr divers sind und mehr Leute hier noch traditionelle Glauben und Werte haben, was die Deutsche meistens verloren haben. Wenn eine Schiffe ohne Anker ist, kann sie mit einem starken Wind leicht hingerissen werden. Nur das will ich ausdrucken.
Comment by Tristan — July 12, 2008 @ 7:18 am |
Basti, bezüglich Kriege ohne UN Mandat und mit Lüge gerechtfertigt, guck dieses Video an. Und viel Spass beim Angucken. Wir setzen Frieden mit militärischen Mittel durch??
Es begann mit einer Lüge
Man braucht kein UN-Mandat um Krieg zu führen, das ist Mythus. Die UN hat keine Durchführungskraft und ist mehr ein Ombudsmann als Weltregierung. Von den dutzende Kriege seit ZWK, gab es nur Zwei mit UN-Mandat, Korea und erster Irak-Krieg. Beide wurden von den US geführt.
Für mich scheinen die Deutschen eine Art des provinziellen Tribalismus zu üben. Sie können Burger anderer Länder kritisieren aber nicht andere Deutschen vor Ausländer. Ihr solltet das hinter euch kriegen.
Comment by Tristan — July 12, 2008 @ 2:09 pm |
Dein vorletzten Satz verstehe ich nicht, sry^^. Kannst du das nochmal auf Englisch schreiben, so wie du das meinst?
Aber ich versuch es. Natürlich können andere Länder Deutschland kritisieren, das ist ihr gutes Recht.
Nur endet das immer nicht gut. Ich kann z.B. nicht mit einem Engländer sprechen weil der mich nach 5 Minuten als Nazi bezeichnet und das wir uns nicht verändert haben uns so was.
Ich bin kein America Hasser. Ich glaube ich habe dir schon mal geschrieben das die USA das einzige Land in das ich auswandern würde.
Nur macht auch ihr Fehler und auch das müsst ihr akzeptieren.
Aber auch Deutschland macht Fehler, die man auch kritisieren darf und das machen wir hier schon zu genug.
Eins z.B. wäre die Bundeswehr, die zögerliche Militärpolitik, zu hohe Steuern, zu hoher Einfluss der EU und noch vieles mehr.
Das, und andere Sachen, kann gerne, also auch du ;-), ein Ausländer kritisieren, damit hab ich kein Problem.
Nur müsst auch ihr akzeptieren das wir Europäer nicht alles gut finden was eure Regierung macht.
Comment by Basti — July 12, 2008 @ 4:36 pm |
Basti, I say the Germans seem to practice a kind of provincial tribalism. They are the world champion critics of other countries, in particular the US, but they have a kneejerk reaction against criticism of Germans by outsiders and they aren’t very good at self-criticism. Watch the video and you will see Schroeder, Fischer and other German politicians were the biggest liars in the World, during the Kosovo war. There was no humanitarian catastrophe before the war and the war had no UN mandate. Yet German hypocrites (such as Schroeder and Fischer) have been complaining about Iraq for years, even after Germany approved a UN resolution that mandates the occupation of Iraq led by the US. The difference is it was in Germany’s interest to dismember Yugoslavia, but in Iraq it was in German interests to keep that butcher in power in Bagdad. Don’t expect me to respect that kind of hypocrisy from Germans, especially when the Germans aren’t willing to do anything themselves of much significance against dictators like Hussein, not even financially. Germans need to get over their sanctimonious attitude. Germans aren’t willing to fight or risk their lives to help protect Iraqi civilians or anyone else from terrorism. If you want someone to listen to your criticism, you have to be ready to do something significant yourself. We say “bullshit walks” (Bullshit taugt nicht). You can criticize all you want, but it is meaningless, if you don’t have another idea and are not willing to help do something better. German criticism of the US for the last few years has just been pathetic hypocrisy. At some point one would hope that Germans would have enough pride to either do something constructive or STFU. At east that is what is expected in the US.
I don’t mean to turn this into a debate over US policy. So, I will probably delete these comments and not accept many more of this type. Germans that want to bullshit about US politics more after so many years should go elsewhere.
We also have enough people in the US that want to complain about the US without doing anything themselves. If you are this type of person, you should go to Canada instead, where it is completely acceptable, like in Germany, to bitch all the time about the US without proposing to do much about it themselves.
Comment by Tristan — July 12, 2008 @ 7:30 pm |
Rammstein bringen wahrscheinlich Ende des Jahres ein neues Album heraus. Was erwartest du?
Comment by Edmund Sackbauer — July 25, 2008 @ 1:23 pm |
Keine Ahnung. Hoffentlich ist es voll von Nazismus und Satanismus, damit ich sie weiter verhöhnen kann.
Comment by Tristan — July 25, 2008 @ 2:07 pm |
Satanismus bei Rammstein? Hab ich was verpasst?
Comment by Edmund Sackbauer — July 26, 2008 @ 2:42 am |
Vielleicht vermißt du doch was. Waren die Nazis nicht satanisch genug für dich? Man kann die ZWK sehen als Kampf zwischen christlichen Werte und satanische/atheistische Kräfte. Satanismus ist das, was die christliche Religion entgegensetzt und kam von einer Kombination von älteren Religionen. Hitler und die Nazis wollten die christliche Religion zerstören. Viele was Rammstein macht kann man sehen als Versuch die christliche Werte abzulehnen. Homosexualität, Menschenfressen, Mißbrauch von Kinder sind Themen, die Satanisten fördern möchten. Naja, Leute haben eine Stereotyp was Satanismus ist und die Definierung ist ziemlich subjektiv. Aber mehr Konkret ist das Rammstein durch Helnwein mit Scientology alliiert ist. Der Gründer von Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, gab sich, als er Junger was, öffentlich aus, Satanist zu sein und Scientology hat auch satanische Kirche hervorgerufen, wie die Process Church of the Final Judgement, die in den 60en eine Mutter-Kult der moderne Satanismus war. Heutzutage ist Satanismus oftmals nicht viel mehr als eine neue Art der Fachismus. Ich denke an diesen Devil-Horn-Salut als der neue faschistische Salut. Mussolini soll auf einmal gesagt haben, dass man an die 20. Jahrhundert erinnern wird, weil eine neue Religion dann geboren wurde, Faschismus. Der Kampf geht heute weiter. Es wurde hilfreich sein, wenn man anerkennen könnte, wo wirklich der Front dieser Schlacht legt. Es geht darum, die etablierte Werte besonders unter jugendliche abzuschwächen. Diese etablierte Werte in Europa sind historisch angesehen, von die Ethik der christlichen Religion gekommen, ob man das wissen will oder nicht. Denkt nicht nur an das Stereotyp von Satanismus. Satan kann sich auch mal modernisieren.
Comment by Tristan — July 26, 2008 @ 7:51 am |
I’m a huge Rammstein fan, I listen to all of their songs. For me Rammstein is just a rock band that just happens to be German. Personally I listen to Rammstein because I just love the way Till sings with a deep aggressive voice, and how their instrumental just blends in perfectly. But by no means am I a Nazi youth.
Sure there are many instances were Rammstein uses Nazi symbols and gestures, but you can clearly see that it’s all in the name of entertainment. It seems that Rammstein likes to build controversy or play around with what most people will think as evil. This has been seen in countless hard rock bands, like Black Sabbath, Rob Zombie, Alice Cooper, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson, etc. They choose to do something out of the normal and use something evil/satanic/unordinary to make a sort of band identity. And it just happens that Rammstein is German, and that it is easy for people to identify them with the Nazi (trust me, as a fan of Rammstein I’ve been called a Neo-Nazi). That just shows how people stereotype German’s as Nazi (I’m Hungarian/Dutch and for that as well I’ve been called German, and thus a Nazi).
Honestly though, I don’t care if Rammstein is showing Nazi symbols to promote Nazism, because their music is really good in my opinion. But logically speaking I think that Rammstein is just it doing to have an edge and for pure hard rock entertainment.
All I’m saying is that you should not so critical about what may just be for entertainment, and not to judge the whole by only a few rotten parts, i.e. some misfit Rammstein fans. How ever there should be improvements in stopping the misfits, like the Neo-Nazi’s and KKK, rather then blaming the bands for all the evils going on.
P.S. I hope that I might have given you some more ideas to consider when talking about Rammstein, Hard Rock bands, and Neo-Nazi/KKK misfits. By no means do I want you to think that I’m telling you what to think. It’s just my two cents.
Comment by Laszlo — August 4, 2008 @ 7:43 pm |
Lazlo, the Nazis caused the deaths of about 40 million people. About 10 million of them in industrial massmurder factories, where human beings were slaughtered like so many chickens, their clothes and belongings recycled and even the metals in their teeth stripped from their mouths for the enrichment of the German people. They planned to mass murder 25 million people in Eastern Europe, deport millions more and use the rest as slaves for “Aryan lords” that would colonize the area. Do you really think that this is a topic that bands such as Rammstein should be “playing around with” for people’s casual entertainment? If so, then Rammstein should just freely admit publically that they think the massmurder of millions of people is something that they find amusing and that they “play around with” to entertain their fans. Why should they continue lying about it to their fans? Maybe they should add some death camp footage to their videos or some footage of the Einsatzgruppen as they shot thousands of people in a few days – including women and children – into ditches and covered the bloody mass of their bodies with lime so that they would rot quicker? Putrid, naked, twisted bodies of innocent men, women and children would surely be of great entertainment value to Rammstein’s fans, don’t you think?
Many of their young, inexperienced fans don’t know that they “play around” with Nazism like that. Many wouldn’t be fans, if they knew. And Rammstein is not mocking Nazism, they are glorifying it to their fans that know what they are doing.
I agree that a many bands do this and more people should be aware that they are doing it. That is the purpose of this website.
Comment by Tristan — August 4, 2008 @ 8:03 pm |
I’m a Rammstein fan, and I know alot about the crime the nazis did under ww2, but i think most charges against Rammstein is a sort of witch hunt, on the band and the german people.
For instance, the wolfs in “Du riegschst so gut”. If you had seen the making of the video, you would know that they didn’t want to use wolf in the first place, but hyenas instead. But they didn’t want to coopperate in the video, so they was force to use wolf.
And the famous “Links 2 3 4” video, if you watch the ants tactic, you would see, it’s the same as the red armys invasion of Berlin, so they show the fall there, and that’s why the video don’t support nazism in anyway.
I have read the text to most of their songs, and to be honost, I have seen a lot of racist, the just make charges against Rammstein, without even knowing anything, BECAUSE they are german.
I have also seen in this artikel, that you misplace alot of things, so they fit your way,
but your charges are not the most ridiculous I have heard. But you got to understand that most of the fans know about the nazism in ww2, and the problem is not the band, but a small group of people, that just ruin for the rest of the fans, here are some quotes from the band.
“There’s been a lot of talk about that, but if there are radical feelings in people anything can wake them – a painting, a picture, whatever. It’s just a coincidence that it happened to be our music. It’s important to think about what caused them to make their decisions, how they became animals, not their taste in music. Whenever something like this happens it’s like ‘Okay, let’s blame the artist’. Such bullshit. (Till Lindemann).
“Our music is made to release aggression, and people listening to it are also needed to do that, but it’s not our fault. Should we stop making hard music because bad people might like it?” (Christoph “Doom” Schneider).
But Tristan, maybe you should try to watch the “Mann gegen Mann” video, and read the lyrics to it, it can’t get more anti-nazi then that, and if Rammstein was trying to manipulate us with nazi themes and glorifying it, this would be last song/video they would use.
And you seems always to forget, that Hitler was the one to order all the horrible things, and many didn’t even knew about such things as Auswitch-Birkennau.
Many was not even what people would call nazis, but just soldiers that was taking orders from their superiors. Like everyone else was doing under ww2.
I think I can refute most of the charges against Rammstein, so ask if there is anything you want to know.
Comment by GonZarles — August 7, 2008 @ 1:46 am |
GonZarles, You write English pretty well for a Dane. it is pretty naive to take Rammstein at their word. Bands have been doing the sort of thing that Rammstein does for several decades. That is put in Nazi and occult references in their music. The Rammstein members know exactly what they are doing. They just knowingly spread misinformation about some things to confuse their young fans and the public. I am not actually saying they are nazis in the classic sense, but that they knowingly put Nazi and occult references in their music like Marilyn Manson does and many other bands. The fans should be aware that they do this intentionally. Rammstein is knowingly trying to screw with the heads of their young fans, by glorifying Nazism and occult topics.
I think if you looked at this book, you would understand better what Rammstein is doing:
Art That Kills: A Panoramic Portrait of Aesthetic Terrorism 1984-2001
The author of the book, George Petros, is a member of this “subculture”, not a fundamentalist Christian, and is sympathetic to the ideas of this group of people.
There is a fairly large group of musicians and other artists that do this type of thing, promote a prurient interest in Nazism, the occult, homosexuality and even cannibalism. Nazis are attracted to Rammstein because the recognize the aesthetic, not by random chance. When young people commit mass murders because they become obsessed with Rammstein, I think it is reasonable to expect that the band change their style of music. Their fame and wealth is not worth the lives of these young people. They will not do this, however, because they are arrogant and greedy and don’t care about the lives of others. So, the public should force them to change. This website is just an attempt to inform the public.
With regard to racism, Rammstein are a bunch of white guys and I am also a white guy (mainly anglo saxon with some German – probably 20-25% – and other European ancestry). The charge of racism doesn’t work against me, sorry. I am the same race and also have been a big fan of the German language and history for many years. Rammstein are the ones that are dragging Germany through the mud and not me. I am just pointing out what they are doing.
Comment by Tristan — August 7, 2008 @ 9:29 am |
Paul, dies ist eine private Webseite. Wenn etwas interessiert, wird es aufgestellt. Es ist aber langweilig wenn Leute immer wiederholen, dass Rammstein kein Nazis sind, als ob sie gar nicht die Webseite gelesen hätten. Das ist hier nicht die Frage. Hier wird behauptet, ist dass sie Nazi Anspielungen in ihre Musik machen. Dann lügen Rammstein darüber, als ob sie ganz unschuldig wären. Wir wollen sie nur ein bißchen entpuppen und gleichzeitig verhöhnen.
Comment by Tristan — September 21, 2008 @ 7:36 am |
Why for god sake U.S.A. think about accepting the U.E. enviroment rotection laws? You see the natzi killed people fast for a goal (not good) however U.S. kills the hole planet only slower, sadic …for what? Money? Is it all? Please answer me if you don’t poste this!
Comment by Kopan — September 24, 2008 @ 11:15 am |
Kopan, that is way off topic. But, if you think the US is “killing the planet”, you should consider the possibility that you may be suffering from anti-american hysteria, . Not sure what “U.E. environment protection laws” are. I assume you are talking about the “global warming” effect.
The Nazis were a mass hysteria in Europe and the current reation to “global warming” also has the characteristics of mass hysteria, mainly again in Europe. There is no clear scientific evidence that man is causing any significant rise in temperature of the Earth, or that it has killed a single person.
You can say, if CO2 is released into the atmosphere, it will trap some heat, but you can not say whether it is significant, or not, because other atmospheric phenomena have a much greater impact, which masks any contribution that CO2 may have. Water vapor, for example causes the Earth to be about 30°C warmer than it would be, if there were no water vapor in the atmosphere. The temperature of the Earth varies naturally by several degress C, as demonstrated by the ice ages. There is not enough data to say whether man has caused any significant rise in temperature of the Earth in the past few decades.
In addition, the World is running out of fossil fuels. So the whole thing seems absurd.
Comment by Tristan — September 24, 2008 @ 11:49 am |
“There is no clear scientific evidence that man is causing any significant rise in temperature of the Earth, or that it has killed a single person” if you think that way ….the atomic bomb was a natural!!!!
There are soem international laws about the enviroment you shold search more. And another thing most of the natzi leaders cross the Atlantic and i’m not suffering from any anti-Xcountry hYsteria there are a “few” lessons i’ve lerned in school college and faculty.Think twice before asking if it’s real or not.Another thing and the last i want you to delete my post and consider making an article about this ..issue(those lessons if your asking were made in Europe and there were treated right like they shoud bee)
p.s send me a mail when you make that article with a critical opinion
Comment by Kopan — September 24, 2008 @ 8:03 pm |
Kopan, politicians would like to think that they can legislate science, but they can not do it. A law passed by politicians does not equate to scientific proof of anything. It is not nearly as clear cut as some socialist politicians and the media would like you to believe. When people think the Americans are “destroying the World” without being able to undestand why — except what they see in the media — or point to any person that has died from golbal warming, it does look like hysteria to me. My background is in science and I do know how to judge data and there is no clear data that shows that man is responsible for a significant global warming effect. Europeans should realize that the US is a good ally, especially important for the East Europeans and that we are not the enemy.
I think I will let the global warming hysteria take care of itself. The temperature of the Earth has gone up and down in the last 150 years. When it drops 0.5°C again, like it has in the past, the global warming paranoia will be over.
Graph of Global Temperature vs. Year
Comment by Tristan — September 24, 2008 @ 9:32 pm |
@Lars, Der Lügner bist du, mein Jung. „Du haßt“ und „du hast“ klingt sehr ähnlich auf Deutsch. Wenn du wirklich deutscher Muttersprachler bist, weißt du das. Rammstein übersetzen das selbst als „you hate“ in der englischen Version. Das Jewish Defense League hat Rammstein angeklagt, weil sie Clips von einem Propaganda-Film der Nazis in dem Video „Stripped“ benutzten. Wenn Du denn Artikel wirklich mal läsest, würdest du wissen, dass ich nicht Rammstein „Nazis“ genannt habe, aber nur andeute darauf, dass sie viel auf Nazismus anspielen, was wirklich nicht zu verleugnen ist, ausgenommen von ihren Fans.
Comment by Tristan — September 28, 2008 @ 6:55 am |
i think that alot of the fascination with nazism amoungst white youth is related to the fact that they are lacking positive depictions of pride in their heritage. it is important for everyone, regardless of whether they are black, white, yellow, brown or red, to be able to take pride in their race in a manner that doesn’t demean or dehumanise other races. unfortunately for white kids, in large amounts of the media they consume (movies, tv shows, books, music), they are made to choose between 3 extremes: micheal moore, eminem and hitler.
the 1st writes rants filled with scorn for ‘stupid white men’ (despite being both white and male), while the 2nd blatantly rips off black culture. this has left the swastika and the jackboot as the only real alternative to hip hop culture. is it any wonder that nazi imagery has become so popular?
Comment by stompy — October 1, 2008 @ 5:14 pm |
There is too much political correctness, but that is no excuse. I think people have just forgotten what the Nazis were about.
Comment by Tristan — October 1, 2008 @ 6:23 pm |
Este es el sitio mas puto que haya existido, absolutamente perseguido, solo un maldito esquizofrenico pudo escribir tanta mierda contra rammstein, ni remotamente pueden llegar a ser nazis, aunque los nazis no son peores que el puto Ohlmert, no judios de mierda???…que matan inocentes por donde se les cruce…son basura, pura basura…
This is the most very fucking website that ever made. only a fucking esquizo, could write so many shit against rammstein, they never could be nazis, even the nazis are not worst than the fucking idot of the israeli 1st ministry, eh? you fucking jews pieze of shit…who kill inocent people for every where…you ´re pure scum…
Comment by Mark — October 3, 2008 @ 7:00 pm |
Mark, No soy judío. Gracias al Señor, soy Americano de Corazón. Con fanáticos como Tu, Rammstein no necesitan enemigos. 🙂
Comment by Tristan — October 4, 2008 @ 11:45 am |
God Bless Hitler! Jews get out of Europe, you are not welcome here. Arbeit macht frei!
Comment by Adolf Hitler — November 9, 2008 @ 7:36 pm |
Je vais peut-etre paraitre raciste au pire nazi, mais jsuis raciste, mais envers les race qui ne s’assimile point enver leur foyer d’accueil, je suis allemand et j’ai oublier mon passer et ma langue pour vivre avec ma nouvelle vie, je parle anglais, allemand et russe, mais je prefere de vous parlez francais ma terre d’accueil
Comment by Wolfram — November 18, 2008 @ 9:33 pm |
Hallo Tristan, du bist für mich der erste der sich mit der dunklen Seite von Rammstein so auseinandersetzt.
Ich finde Rammstein einzigartig, höre die Musik seit 10 Jahren.
Rammstein ist für mich eine Mischung aus Heavy Metal und Deutsches. Deutsches ? Für mich ihre Kostüme bei der Reise Reise Tour, der Gesang…
Ich empfinde Till Lindemanns Gesang als kraftvoll und schön. Die Texte empfinde ich eher als kritisch, über Sex und unglückliche Liebe sprechend. Nicht alle Texte sind schön, aber ich finde es gibt viel Poesie in den Texten von dem guten Till Lindemann. Wusstest du übrigens dass sein Vater Kinderbücher geschrieben hat ?
was ich aber zu militärisch finde: Flakes Helm bei der Reise Reise Tour. Völlig daneben finde ich, dass sie ein Video von Leni Riefenstahl als Videoclip von ihrer Single Stripped genommen haben.
Wenn ich Musik von Rammstein höre, lasse ich mich von der Musik tragen, und denke nicht nach ob es in den Texten Allusionen an Nazi-Zeiten oder Nazi Ideologie gibt. Kennst du die Lieder “Morgenstern”, “Los”, “Reise Reise”, “Ohne Dich”, “Nebel”, “Spieluhr”?
In den Texten von Rammstein kann ich kein Appell zu Pädophilie, sexuellem Verbrechen, Ausländerfeindlichkeit sehen.
Aber jeder empfindet Musik anders, Musik spricht eher die Gefühle an als der Vernunft. Du empfindest halt Rammstein so.
Comment by Marie-Aurélie — January 17, 2009 @ 2:32 pm |
Sieg Rammstein!
Comment by Efreet — May 30, 2009 @ 4:30 pm |